From: Damien Sullivan (phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu)
Date: Thu Apr 03 2003 - 13:40:09 MST
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 04:16:30AM -0500, MaxPlumm@aol.com wrote:
> 1950. Rhee was certainly an authoritarian and a thug. For instance, he had
> executed in 1950 2000 of his own subjects without trial because they were
Gee, *I* didn't know that. You seem pretty cavalier about such mass murder.
True, North Korea seems to be even worse. OTOH, Cuba isn't -- it's
repressive, but I have't heard claims of murder. And in 1950 we couldn't know
how bad North Korea would turn out to be. So we accepted mass murder by our
ally.
> world and economic power. The United States cannot realistically be expected
> to give more than lip service toward its internal human rights violations,
We can't invade, probably. I see no reason we couldn't treat it the same way
we treat Cuba.
> This is certainly a legitimate point worth debate. I obviously do not
> subscribe to it, however. I cannot place the Bush administration's decision
> to forcibly remove a tyrannical regime in Iraq for defensive purposes next to
> the crushing of the Prague Spring by the Soviets, for example.
But are they removing a tyrannical regime for the sake of that, or building up
momentum on an easy target?
And I find the doctrine of pre-emptive action noxious in itself.
> South Korea who would not have democracy today if not for the actions in the
> past and present of the United States. This is a fact worth far more than a
> footnote.
And not a fact which excuses any wrongs committed now.
> troops on Mr. Hussein's doorstep so Hans Blix could continue to collect a
> paycheck and hope that the regime disarmed. It will take far more than the
> removal of an obstinate tyrant to validate your claims of "neocon dreams of
> empire."
Google on "pax americana". Or
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0923/p01s03-uspo.html
More broadly, the 31-page document asserts American dominance as the
lone superpower - a status no rival power will be allowed to
challenge.
And it provides a reason the world should accept this state of
affairs: the expansion of peace and more freedom. A Pax Americana will
be "in the service of a balance of power that favors freedom."
Critics are already describing the new strategy as arrogant and
dangerous - a far cry from the tone of humility in foreign affairs
promised in President Bush's inaugural address.
In the service of the war on drugs, and pressure against abortion or cloning
rights?
Or http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.html
It's not liberal paranoia, it's the National Security Strategy.
> fall of the Soviet Union. Perhaps you would disagree, but I would then ask
> that you provide some examples in which Communist regimes willingly gave up
> power prior to the fall of the USSR.
Technically East Germany, in 1989, although that took USSR forbearance; the
USSR proper didn't fall until 1991.
And, you know, the Soviet Bloc did fall. We contained it, but we didn't push
it over.
> United States. The decision by our government to support the tyrannical
> Pinochet regime can and should be rigorously debated. However, it should be
After the coup President Allende was found dead inside the
presidential palace. Whether he was killed or whether he killed
himself, we'll never know. In the regime of terror that ensued,
thousands of people were killed. Many more simply 'disappeared'.
Firing squads conducted public executions. Concentration camps and
torture chambers were opened across the country. The dead were buried
in mine shafts and unmarked graves. For 17 years the people of Chile
lived in dread of the midnight knock, of routine 'disappearances', of
sudden arrest and torture. Chileans tell the story of how the musician
Victor Jara had his hands cut off in front of a crowd in the Santiago
stadium. Before they shot him, Pinochet's soldiers threw his guitar at
him and mockingly ordered him to play.
In 1999, following the arrest of General Pinochet in Britain,
thousands of secret documents were declassified by the US government.
They contain unequivocal evidence of the CIA's involvement in the coup
as well as the fact that the US government had detailed information
about the situation in Chile during General Pinochet's reign. Yet
Kissinger assured the general of his support: 'In the United States as
you know, we are sympathetic to what you are trying to do', he said,
'We wish your government well'.
-- Arundhati Roy in the Guardian
> I will certainly strenuously argue with your contention if need be, but I
> would first ask if you seriously believe that the Mullahs are in anyway
> vulnerable to losing their 24 year grip on power through this "democracy" you
> suggest is present in Iran.
Yes, I do. I follow news in Iran somewhat regularly. Reformists have been
elected -- in fact, dominate the legislature. Students protest. People are
tired of theocracy and poor economy, and have some room for saying so. And if
you're a woman you're much better off there than in Saudia Arabia or
Afghanistan. Dress code, yes, but also the ability to pursue politics and
professions.
-xx- Damien X-)
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