Re: Evaluation of U.S. Role in World Affairs (was RE: META:Greg Burch's request)

From: MaxPlumm@aol.com
Date: Thu Apr 03 2003 - 05:30:34 MST

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    Lee Corbin wrote:

    >
    >
    > The point needs to be made over and over that the pre-1989
    > world was a LOT DIFFERENT than now. The West was fighting
    > for its life against the Soviet play for world domination.

    To which Samantha responded:

    "Actually, there is some argument that the situation was never
    quite so much like that as US intelligence and defense
    communities claimed."

    Then please provide this argument or some links to it.

    "But it sure was great for justifying a lot
    of nasty things. Of course, post 1989 we didn't exactly change
    our spots."

    Again, please provide some substantiation for this claim (Cold War and
    beyond) rather than rhetoric.

    > They devoted 14% of their GNP to military uses, but would
    > have devoted much more than that if they'd been capable of it.
    >
    > The choice, as Max Plumm has eloquently explained, was never
    > between "democracy" and "tyranny" in a developing country,
    > but between "pro-U.S. authoritarianism" and "pro-Soviet
    > totalitarianism" in those places. It's still an open
    > question even today whether democracy is at all possible
    > in Iraq.
    >

    "This is a gross simplification that I doubt very much was the
    case in most of the things we were involved in."

    If that is your belief, than illustrate that it is a gross simplification.

    "It is hard to
    see how it had anything to do with most our actions outside of
    Cuba in Central America or with any of our actions in Latin
    American countries or with most of our actions in the MidEast
    except for Afghanistan."

    Please elaborate on specific actions if you are going to take such a hostile
    and critical stance against US intervention abroad.

    "The fight against communisum moved out
    of the McCarthy era into our foreign policy as justification for
    all things. Communist were doubtless considered to be behind
    anyting anywhere that wasn't going quite as we wished it to go."

    This is simply absurd. Churchill's "Iron Curtain Speech" occured in 1946, and
    our heavy aid to the Greek Royalists against the Communists began in 1947,
    before the McCarthy era picked up sufficient steam. Where specifically in
    your view did we inappropriately blame Communism and the Soviet Union? I find
    it difficult to believe you would say that was the case in Greece, Cuba,
    Korea, Indochina, or Afghanistan, the major fronts of the Cold War.
        
    "We really shouldn't believe such rhetoric as "we were
    fighting communism and that is why we did all these things"
    without a lot of careful examination."

    Then engage in an examination of the record, something that you have been
    consistently unwilling to do. It is not appropriate to take such a stance and
    then make "hit and run" comments such as this one.

    Regards,

    Max Plumm



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