Re: Performance enhancement with selegiline

From: Alex Ramonsky (alex@ramonsky.com)
Date: Sat Feb 08 2003 - 04:30:05 MST

  • Next message: Anders Sandberg: "Re: PD"

    Gentlemen;
    I do not know if this is relevant to your discussion, and please forgive
    me for butting in, but...

    ...'Geddy' has been taking Selegiline (R-(-)-Deprenyl hydrochloride) @
    20mg daily since 21st December 2002. Geddy is a 44-year-old male human
    in average health who does not suffer from any neurological disorder,
    and is basically taking selegiline to see what happens.
    We are monitoring him. He intends to stay on the drug indefinitely
    unless there are deleterious effects.
    For obvious reasons Geddy wishes to remain low-profile! We're happy to
    discuss this trial and any clinical results if contacted WITH PGP at
     alex@ramonsky.com
    He is however happy for the world to know the following:
    He has noticed several changes since beginning the trial. The first
    change was an increase in confidence, he felt calmer and less shy and
    was able to communicate more easily. He felt more confident and
    assertive in business environments. Then he noticed that an annoying
    nervous habit of wiggling his toes had stopped. He feels he can control
    his emotions more sensibly and think more rationally under stress.
    His dreams have become more vivid, and he feels his fantasy life and
    imagination have improved. He explains an odd sensation of 'thinking too
    fast to be able to verbalise it', which is the only downer so far. On
    the whole he seems a great deal happier as an individual.
    We may have to wait some time to see if he lives longer, of course. But
    other data are coming in, all along the way. As far as I know, this is
    the first trial of a healthy human?
    : )
    AR

    Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

    >gts wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>Many, many dozens of published studies state, suggest, or offer
    >>evidence of the neuroprotective value of selegiline in PD.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >### Show me any class A studies to this effect.
    >
    >Listing dozens of animal studies is perfectly irrelevant - in clinical
    >medicine animal studies are not even class C evidence, they are not evidence
    >at all.
    >
    >"Neuroprotection in PD" means that the rate of neuron loss is reduced
    >compared to a control group. There must be a clinical effect, or else the
    >neuroprotection (if detected post mortem) is useless.
    >
    >There must be either, maintenance of UPDRS improvement after washout of the
    >drug, or delay to untreatable disability, or delay of death. Neither
    >occurred in DATATOP.
    >
    >The class A study, DATATOP, shows no evidence of clinically significant
    >neuroprotection. Period. End of discussion.
    >
    >------------------
    >
    >
    >>>>As background: there was once a hypothesis that levodopa
    >>>>accelerates the attrition of dopaminergic neurons, and that
    >>>>levodopa-sparing therapy would delay the onset of dyskinesias which
    >>>>usually develop after about 5-7 years on levodopa, and perhaps
    >>>>prolong survival. A nice hypothesis, but not true -substituting
    >>>>dopa-agonists or selegiline for levodopa in initial treatment does
    >>>>not delay the onset of dyskinesia. ...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>I think are mistaken here to include selegiline in the same class of
    >>drugs as levodopa. Levodopa is merely a simple dopamine agonist --
    >>actually it's not even that -- it's merely an ordinary amino acid and
    >>a precursor to dopamine. Selegiline's actions are far more complex
    >>and less well understood.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >### I think you are mistaken to say I included selegiline in the same class
    >of drugs as levodopa.
    >
    >------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >>If you were really on top of this subject, Rafal, then I believe you
    >>and I would not be arguing whether selegiline is neuroprotective.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >### OK, I am just too incompetent to discuss PD with you.
    >
    >All my years of training as a neurologist, my movement disorders fellowship,
    >and you simply crush me with the abstracts of a few little rat studies.
    >
    >On the other hand, if you were a neurologist and a scientist you would not
    >waste anybody's time with fuzzy tissue-culture experiments and try to treat
    >them as adequate arguments against double-blind placebo controlled studies.
    >
    >-----------------------
    >
    > Other studies show
    >
    >
    >>that selegiline increases lifespan in <snip> human PD
    >>patients.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >### Quote them and show they are more reliable and trustworthy than DATATOP.
    >
    >Rafal
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



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