From: Brett Paatsch (paatschb@ocean.com.au)
Date: Sat Jan 04 2003 - 18:56:12 MST
Lee writes:
> Brett writes
>
> > I've read the piece Damien refers too as well. Lyle Burkhead
> > looks to me like the sort of guy you might need to be careful
> > where you were seen (or more likely overheard talking with)
>
> That's right. Guilt by association is alive and well.
>
> > but on the whole based only on his writing he comes across
> > to me as a likeable and intelligent guy wrestling as many
> > intelligent folk do with ways to make progress and to improve
> > his own and the "human condition".
>
> Nothing, of course, is wrong with that.
>
> > I can imagine his sort easily beneath the... broad
> > umbrella of transhumanism I'd approve of.
>
> Are you approving of the notion that someone with such
> radical ideas be allowed to be called a transhumanist?
Perhaps more precisely I'm saying if he wants to call himself
a transhumanist, when in his case, its not ignorance of the meaning
of what transhumanist can legitimately be taken to mean, then I
would be reluctant to disagree with him and want to "throw" him
'out of the club' but I would want it to be clear that he doesn't
speak for all transhumanists and he doesn't speak for me.
> If so, I agree. Do you agree with him or approve of
> his viewpoints? I don't.
His viewpoints were changing, and he was willing to make up
his mind for himself about controversial topics. Of that I approve.
I think its healthy for everyone to examine prejudice once in a
while even prejudice against prejudice. If one cannot put oneself in
shoes of a racist or a sexist or a bad guy for a while one can't
understand them and deal with them effectively. And if one can't do
that one can't take face down their behaviours and actions in the
meme-wars and beat them. I think there is a process of "growing
up" we all need to go through. If we don't explore some of the
darker sides of human nature and human history we can't
understand them and can't deal with them.
I warm to the humanity in the guy, and my knowledge of him is
limited to that which Damien made available in his post. If you
are asking me whether right now he and I are in agreement in our
world views - I don't know but I seriously doubt it.
If I have to say yes or no as to whether I agree with him or not
then reluctantly (because it is a crude answer- I'd say I don't).
But I'd be reluctant to say I agree with the views of any person
on an all or nothing basis, precisely because most of us are in
the process of forming and refining our views..
>
> > I still think it's legitimate to consider differences
> > between groups and races.
>
> What do you believe is illegitimate to consider?
I can't think of anything offhand. But considering and talking
about may be too different things. One does need to be aware
I think that others can be influenced by what one says and does
if I am growing up and incomplete so too are many of my
contemporaries. I don't mean this is a negative way but it is not
good form in my view to deliberately "frighten the horses or the
children".
>
> > As it happens its not my area of interest but it is not
> > invalid per se, or so far as I can see anti-transhumanist
> > per se to question whether there are racial differences
> > that are significant.
>
> Now, invalidity is another matter altogether! Many will
> reasonably claim that supposing that there are racial
> differences is as invalid as supposing that the sun
> goes around the Earth. They are perfectly entitled to
> their opinion.
This swings on the definition of "racial differences". I talk a bit
more about "racial stuff" in the parallel thread.
>
> > Also I'm not sure I'd want to be connected to a belief system
> > either, I like Max More's approach to belief systems, as I
> > understand it. Beliefs are too [sic] be avoided if possible
> > and minimised when not - hence PCR.
>
> I think that it's a weird misuse of language to
> suppose that beliefs should be avoided. Just what
> are you trying to say? (I too, am a big fan of PCR,
> as are many Extropians.)
This is a good question Lee. But I'm pressed for time.
(A friend just rang me for a hit of tennis and its a great
day outside here). Let me come back to it. I will. I promise :-)
>
> > ...I can empathise both with those who are concerned
> > not to [harm] a good "brand" like ExI, and yet I also
> > worry that if criticism, even constructive criticism
> > is limited only to those minor matters that even a
> > casual reader of the list would not find challenging
> > then the health and vibrancy may not be able to be
> > achieved.
>
> Yes, quite well put. The best extropian thinkers have
> from the outset endorsed this view.
>
> > ...not all newbies to extropian thought will be intellectual
> > lightweights and if the material content gets too low or
> > sanitised these folk may actually be discouraged rather
> > than encouraged.
>
> Quite right!
>
> > ... the fact remains there are strong forces in the
> > community acting against the memes and objects of
> > extropians and we need robust forums to counter those
> > forces and marshal pro-active extropic responses of
> > our own. If this list goes too far down the path
> > of being a place for casually interested potential
> > extropes to sample the fare without being put off,
> > it may become less of a forum of interest to those
> > extropians willing and able to marshal "political"
> > action however gently that word is interpreted.
>
> I think that this has already occurred. I already know
> of conversations about extropian topics that have had
> to be taken off line because of the "image" it was felt
> necessary to show the world.
Without knowing the background I for one would not
presume to say that that was the wrong decision.
I would say though that to the extent it is possible to
attract and maintain the interest of serious free thinkers
the forum becomes vibrant robust and healthy. Keeping
up the critical mass is important as so often the deeper
thinkers grow through the stage where lists can actually
satisfy them. They weary of the repetition. Their input is
invaluable but there time is theirs and they come to
choose to allocate it as the precious thing it it.
I think it is incumbent upon all of us who wish to see
extropic memes propagated not to trivially or recklessly
poop in the communal pool.
Regards,
Brett
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Jan 15 2003 - 17:35:50 MST