Date sent: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:43:34 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Donaghe <tdonaghe@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Final Challenge to Socialists To: extropians@extropy.com Send reply to: extropians@extropy.com
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> ---"Joe E. Dees" <jdees0@students.uwf.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Date sent: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:25:02 -0500
> > From: Michael Lorrey <mike@lorrey.com>
> > Organization: Mikeysoft
> > To: extropians@extropy.com
> > Subject: Re: Final Challenge to Socialists
> > Send reply to: extropians@extropy.com
> >
> > > Joe E. Dees wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ok, you support the existence of government. But do you support
> > > > the
> > > > existence of a coercive (violence, theft toward the individual)
> > > > government? If so, how do you support those views in terms of
> > > > Extropianism. If not, please explain how a non-coercive
> government
> > > > could exist...
> > > >
> > > > An entirely non-coercive government cannot exist; such an absolute
> > > > is an abstract, unreifiable construct, resembling a "straw
> saint" (an
> > > > "if we can't have perfection, let's not have anything" kind of
> > > > argument). But since there are necessary, essential and
> > > > indispensable services which only some form of government can
> > > > provide, it is useful for us to keep total non-coercion before
> us as an
> > > > asymptotically approachable goal, towards which we strive by
> > > > working to make the government we must have as non-coercive as
> > > > possible, while still able to perform its necessary, essential and
> > > > indispensable functions for us. If this violates some obscure
> tenet of
> > > > Extropian dogma, then there's something wrong with Extropianism at
> > > > that point, for the very concept of dogma is itself a coercive,
> > > > intellectual freedom-stealing one (even antigovernment dogma).
> > >
> > > Wrong. There is a form of nocoercive government. It is called a
> > > hyperdemocracy. In a hyperdemocracy, it isn't one man, one vote,
> its one
> > > man, one veto. Thus, nobody can be coerced into anything, as all
> it takes
> > > to stop a new law is one veto against it. What is required to make
> such a
> > > system work over the long term is that a) the original
> Constitution be set
> > > up such that it guarrantees maximum functional freedoms to everybody
> > > equally, but b) also give effective mechanisms for people to pursue
> > > remedies to intrusions into their freedoms by others. It should
> recognise
> > > the market as the ultimate arbitrator of cost and value, and
> should set
> > > some basic rules for the organization of cooperative organizations
> of
> > > individuals such that they don't violate individuals freedoms,
> inside or
> > > outside the organization. The articles in such a document should
> be vague
> > > enough in general areas to allow for new technologies or cultural
> changes
> > > without need for revision, but also be specific enough in the
> freedoms area
> > > such that violators cannot dissemble and fudge the facts, and
> should be
> > > clear enough about what is considered coercive government such that
> > > individuals can easily take private legal action against the
> government.
> > > The government should be subject to its own laws.
> > >
> > > Mike Lorrey
> > >
> > >
> > So one industrial polluter can veto all environmental laws and one
> > sexist/racist/ageist/religiobigot can veto all civil rights and equal
> > access laws. Joe
> >
> Without press censorship, such a company would be exposed and the
> general public would demand a change. Other businesses would refuse
> to do business with this industry. We police ourselves much better
> without the government's "help".
>
Without a government to focus/summate/implement the people's will
in this (or any) matter, all they could do when faced with a lawless
major corporation is impotently and ineffectually "bitch", just like I
used to do as an enlisted man in the U. S. Navy. Meanwhile, their
kids are being born with three legs and the arbiters rule for the
corporations, which spend 1% of their pollution profits flying them to
Cancun for "free" vacations. Joe
> ==
> Terry Donaghe: terry@donaghe.com
> Individual, Anarcho-Capitalist, Environmentalist, Transhumanist, Mensan
>
> My Homepage: <http://www.donaghe.com/terry.htm>
>
> Visit The Millennium Bookshelf: <http://www.donaghe.com/mbookshelf.htm> Prepare yourself for the next age of mankind!
>
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