Re: Re" Child Abuse (Was Re: Is the death penalty Extropian?)

den Otter (
Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:59:42 +0100

> From: Michael Somers <>

>> If you persist in this completely insane, and frankly offensive diatribe of an excuse you call a philosophy, you can expect this to be my first and last response to your posts. Frankly, I'm just as surprised the more libertarian list members haven't eaten you for breakfast yet!<<

Hmm, that certainly struck a nerve. I wonder why...Anyway, perhaps the libertarian list members don't have much to say on this topic, it being an unpleasant but inevitable side-effect of deregulation. Your post, or rather flame, certainly didn't offer any practical alternatives.

> My response (flame):
> I first take offense at your use of the word "evil" which is got to be one of the
most loaded and overused words of any 'religious' system. Your use of it smacks
> of a pre-ordained sense of moral righteousness and religious upbringing. I don't
care if your an atheist or not - it has become obvious that you have all of the
> markings of a religious zealot of the highest order - which I think the rest of
your post will bear out.

Jada, jada. If you have some kind of religious hangup with the word "evil", than that's too bad for you. Most other people will agree that someone who kills/rapes/otherwise harms innocent victims for his own pleasure is "evil". If such a person comes from a loving family, never had any (serious) traumatic experience etc. than the logical conclusion is he was "born evil". Do you have any better ideas?

>>Your persistence in resorting to massive centralized government to handle all of our 'trickier' problems is the most offensive of all - I don't care if you *do* call yourself a libertarian.<<

I *don't* call myself a libertarian, though I do support various "libertarian" ideas such as maximal freedom for the individual and the free market. However, I certainly *don't* share the rather naive view that "the invisible hand" of the market will make everything all right if you just let it (by removing or heavily limiting the government). "The invisible hand" don't care Jack Shit about such things as child abuse. Although I like the *idea* of libertarianism, I don't blindly and dogmatically belief that a functioning "stateless" society could ever be achieved for any significant lenght of time. Why? Simply put: because Joe Sixpack ain't no libertarian. Throughout history people have shown that they are prone to form societies that severely curb personal freedom. All the bureaucrats, dictators and other oppressors of the world *can only exist thanks to the fear, ignorance and conformism of the people*.

>>It has also become obvious that you are a socialist of the highest order<<

Bullshit. I may have some ideas which traditionally are associated with socialism, but they are just a part of a much broader philosophy which cuts trough all existing political orientations (because all have some good points, and all have some bad points, so you pick and choose instead of blindly giving your soul to one of them). I don't know on how many posts you base your conclusion, but obviously you've missed the big picture.

>>- and thus the rest of your viewpoints have become highly suspect. Lest you forget - this is an *Extropian* mailing list - one that seeks spontaneous ordered solutions over centralized governmental ones.<<

Assuming that these are better. Otherwise it would be another pointless dogma. What counts is making life as good as possible for as long as possible. Everything, including centralized government, is a neutral tool which may or may not be used to achieve this goal, according to the specific circumstances.

Of course, now that you mention it, what *is* the "spontaneous" Extropian/ Libertarian solution to child abuse? Oh right, you've stated that you won't "grant me any responses". How convenient.

>>Perhaps you would feel more comfortable on the 'Transhumanist' List, which has a great deal more patience with this sort of poppycock ----><<

Been there, done that. By the way, on that "socialist" (as you would say) list they probably see me as "right wing/conservative" or something. LOL.

> I guess you won't be having children then den!

Why, that's right Michael! And I hope the same goes for you...The earth is already overpopulated enough as it is.

>>P.S. Don't bother whining, this will be the last response I'll grant you the benifit of receiving.<<

Of course.