**Next message:**J. R. Molloy: "Re: SOC/BIO: Forbes on Populism vs. "BigPharma""**Previous message:**J. R. Molloy: "Re: 137: Sheer blank-minded stupidity"**In reply to:**hal@finney.org: "Re: The mathematics of effective perfection"**Next in thread:**scerir: "Re: The mathematics of effective perfection"**Messages sorted by:**[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 hal@finney.org wrote:

*> Eliezer writes:
*

*>
*

*> > Turing's diagonalization theorem can be expressed as follows: A mind
*

*> > cannot perfectly describe itself because there is always, inescapably,
*

*> > some part of the mind which at that moment is observing and is not itself
*

*> > being observed. The observer is always smaller than the observed, and
*

*> > thus cannot perfectly describe it.
*

*>
*

*> I'm not convinced of this argument. It sounds like it could equally well
*

*> "prove" that self-reproducing automata are impossible, because they have
*

*> to have a model of themselves, and the model is always smaller than
*

*> the total automaton, hence there must be part that can't be modelled.
*

*> When people first go to write a self reproducing program they run into
*

*> this, and in some cases they may conclude that it is impossible, if
*

*> they don't stumble onto the trick. Yet von Neumann showed and biology
*

*> confirms that self reproduction is entirely possible.
*

*>
*

*> I'd say the reason is that the model is isomorphic (via some mapping)
*

*> to the system minus the model, and so adding the model does not increase
*

*> the information in the system.
*

*>
*

*> Couldn't a mind's mental model share the same property?
*

*>
*

well, in the case of self-reproducing automata, "there's no one

home." _our_ minds (external to the automaton) can distinguish that the

automaton is performing perfect self-replication, but it is far from

obvious that the automaton itself enjoys the same degree of

discrimination.

-x

**Next message:**J. R. Molloy: "Re: SOC/BIO: Forbes on Populism vs. "BigPharma""**Previous message:**J. R. Molloy: "Re: 137: Sheer blank-minded stupidity"**In reply to:**hal@finney.org: "Re: The mathematics of effective perfection"**Next in thread:**scerir: "Re: The mathematics of effective perfection"**Messages sorted by:**[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

*
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30
: Mon May 28 2001 - 09:50:31 MDT
*