Gerhard Kessell-Haak (Gerhard Kessell-Haak) wrote:
> den Otter: > ........... >Oh yes, they *hate* the victims, maybe because they remind > > them of how the world *really* is. > > Are you being sarcastic? > > >> Since Prof. John Lott's research of FBI crime stats over many years > >> has shown that gun ownerhip conclusively reduces the incidence of > >> crime, while most other 'less well considered' policies tend to > >> increase or have no effect on crime, > >> that gun ownership is an important extropian theme. > > It's an extropian meme in the US perhaps, due to necessity reasons (not > that I would know - I've never lived in the US). I would argue that it isn't in > coutries with more stringent gun laws (and, maybe consequently, lower > death rates due to violent crime). Looking in from the outside, it appears > to me that the US has found itself in a self-induced positive feedback > condition. Preventing a country or region from entering this worrying > state appears to be a more rational course of action - though if you're in > a country lilke the US you may not have much choice but to choose gun > ownership.
Looking at the rest of the world from the inside of this 'positive feedback condition', I can proudly say that, YES, it is 'self-induced', not government induced, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with positive feedback when it comes to human liberty. "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice".... Since extropianism places freedom of the individual and responsibility of the individual on the highest pedestal, extropians who beleive in the rights of the individual should look at the US as being closer to the goal of Unlimited Individual Freedom than most of the rest of the world, at least when it comes to defense/protection of the individual. Since most of the rest of the world lives in a situation of government totalitarianism when it comes to gun ownership, the situation of 'necessity' exists in those other countries, rather than in the US, since extropians living in other countries must temper their beleifs for fear of conflicting with their local cultural/societal/governmental mores, or being found to be in need of 'reeducation' and 'socialization' in their countries penal systems....
"Once we took away their guns, taking their money was real easy." - Unknown Korean
Agent, as communicated to the Senate Intelligence Committee by Colonel William
Barker, USAF
Other notable quotes:
Aristotle says:
"a king's bodyguard is composed of citizens carrying arms; a tyrant's of foreign
mercenaries... ..... arms are included [among the things needed by every city]
because members of the constitution must carry them even among themselves, both for
internal government and in the event of civil disobedience and to repel external
agression.....for those who posess and can wield arms are in a position to decide
whether the consitution is to continue or not."
as to why this was so natural, he said that:
"Take the Hand: this is as good as a talon, or a claw, or a horn, or again a spear
or a sword, or any other weapon or tool; it can be all of these because it can
seize and hold them all. And Nature has admirably contrived the actual shape of the
hand so as to fit with this arrangement."
likewise, quotes from well known historical figures, none of whom were Americans:
Cicero:
"There exists a law, not written down anywhere, but inborn in our hearts...I refer
to the law which lays it down that, if our lives are indangered by plots or
violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves
is morally right."
Stephen Halbrook writes, "In expressing his clear preference [in _Discourses_] for republics over principalities, Machiavelli draws on the Roman experience to show that an armed populace has virtu (civic virtue or valor), while a disarmed populace is subject to the whims of fortuna (fortune)....Ceasar had destroyed the liberty of the Roman republic by engaging in conquests and developing a standing army of professionals....The demise of the armed citizen meant the end of civic virtue and with it the end of the people's control over their destiny."
Also, Cesare Beccaria, a noted Milanese jurist, in his book _On Crimes and
Punishment_(1764):
"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one
imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it
burned, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except
destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of that nature.
They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes."
Montesquieu says:
"Who does not see that self defense is a duty superior to every precept of personal
freedom?"
Sir Walter Raleigh:
" It is the basic principle of a tyrant to unarm his people of weapons, money, and
all means whereby they resist his power."
Thomas Hobbes:
"A covenant not to defend myself from force, by force, is always void. For .. no
man can transfer, or lay down his right to save homself from death...For the right
men have by Nature to protect themselves, when none else can protect them, can by
no covenant be relenquished."
James harrington:
"The arms fo the commonwealth are both numerous and in posture of readiness, but
they consist of her citizens. Men accustomed unto their arms and their liberties
qill never endure the yoke. The distribution of arms among the citizens prevents a
monarch from overcoming a republic."
John Locke:
"Whosoever uses force without Right... puts himself into a state of war with those,
against whome he uses it, and in that state all former ties are cancelled, all
other rights cease, and every one has a right to defend himself, and to resiste the
agressor. Private persons have a right to defend themselves and recover by force
what by unlawful force is taken from them. One may kill an agressor where there is
an insufficient time to appeal to the law, for the law could not restore life to my
dead carcass."
James Burgh:
"No kingdon can be scured otherwise than by armign the people. The posession of
arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave."
William Pitt:
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in
my country, I never would lay down my arms - never- never - NEVER! You cannot
conquer America!"
Granville Sharpe
"The laws of England always required the people to be armed, and not only armed,
but expert in arms."
Thomas Babintom Macauley:
"The right to be armed is the security without which every other is insufficient."
Adolf Hitler:
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected
people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their
subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall."
SA Oberfuhrer of Bad Tolz, Germany:
"The associations of the national revival, the SA and SS and Stahlhelm, give every
responsible citizen the opportunity of campaigning with them. Therefore anyone who
does not belong to one of the above named organizations who unjustifiably
nevertheless keeps his weapon .. must be regarded as an enemy of the national
government and will be brought to account without conmpunction and with the utmost
severity."
-- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ mailto:retroman@together.net Inventor of the Lorrey Drive MikeySoft: Graphic Design/Animation/Publishing/Engineering ------------------------------------------------------------ How many fnords did you see before breakfast today?