> >This is a war of ideas. We are fighting
> >an philosophy here.
>
> That is so true. This whole damn mess is about ideas.
> If everybody would forget the ideas and see the *people* then
> they would
> see how futile the ideals are. These philosophies blind you
> to the reality.
> They make for fanatics. As Anders said, "No ideas are worth dying or
> killing for."
> If the idiots piloting those planes saw the *people* in the buildings
> instead of being blinded by ideals then the tragedy wouldn't
> have happened.
Lovely, wave been reduced to the insane point now where our philosophy is to
disavow philosophy. Our ideals are that we hold no ideals. The philosophy
that philosophy doesn't matter could only be grasped by brutes. They focus
on the concrete and forgo the conceptual level. Exactly how do you define
human life as a value without a philosophy when its philosophy that tells
you what IS in fact valuable? You cannot escape the requirement to possess
one... what you can do is default on your requirement for a rational
philosophy and just drift where the winds take you. This is the most
commonly chosen path. This is why someone with a integrated view of reality
seems so alien or dare I use the word "radical".
>
>
> >Bin laten is one little manifestation of that system.
> >Kill him and 500 more will be cranked out. Its the system
> that needs to be
> >removed and ASAP.
>
> Exactly. If you use guns and weapons of mass destruction you will
> perpetuate the system. A more subtle approach is needed --
> one that removes
> the hold that the religious nutters have over the poor twits who are
> hoodwinked into becoming human bombs. You also need to remove
> the reason
> the religious nutters feel compelled to denounce USA. That
> partly means
> ensuring USA acts more responsibly in the world arena.
>
This isn't at all what history has shown. Where were all the terrorist from
Japan, Germany, or Korea? Historical precedence says that when a country is
beaten down, for the most part, they shut up.
> >Those countries are the most luddite, anti-technology,
> >anti-capitalist, anti-reason countries you could find.
>
> Ask yourself why that is.
> Then ask yourself how that can be changed.
>
> You certainly won't make people in those places love and
> admire America by
> bombing the crap outa them. You will just ensure that the
> ones there who
> already love and admire America get lynched.
By the way, I think we have decent relations with the Japs, and we dropped a
nuke on them!
> >Bin Laden needs to be dealt with, but what created him?
>
> Sadly, in a very real sense the USA created him.
So which is it? Did the US create him? or was it his philosophy? You say
below that its the holding of "ideals" that perpetuates all this evil. So he
ended up with our funds. What he did with them was dictated by his belief
structure, NOT the US making him bomb our own country. It was an error to
assist him to begin with, but I can assure you, he doesn't have marching
orders from the US to attack us.
> >History is the battle of ideas,
> >and if you don't support your own system with the full
> belief that you are
> >correct, they you are going consigned to the quagmire of
> guilt that so many
> >around now seemed to be steeped in. The big enemies we
> should be fighting on
> >our front (as well as those foreign) are guilt and fear.
> Most of the guilt
> >is because we still have in this age of moon walks and
> supercomputers, that
> >we still possess the philosophy of cave men. Those that carry that
> >philosophy, and its a majority of people for the most part,
> deserve it and
> >the guilt.
>
> I am sure Bin Laden would agree entirely with that sentiment.
Nice to see you stand up for a void and a nothingness of ideals. Our
founding fathers would be proud finally being told that concepts like
freedom, achievement, liberty mean nothing.
> That really frightens me Jerry -- you are speaking exactly as
> a dangerous
> fanatic would speak. Are you seriously suggesting that ideas are the
> important thing? That freedom from guilt and fear are the key
> to survival?
> You do realise that these are big reasons why most of the truly
> reprehensible deeds are able to be committed -- that the
> perpetrators are
> convinced that the ideas are more important than anything
> else and that
> they shouldn't feel guilty about what they have to do.
> Further that they
> don't feel fear of retribution.
>
> - Miriam
Damn strait I'm a fanatic for liberty and proud of it. Ill fight to the
death to preserve it as well, for myself and my children.
I'm sure everyone here that's spouting against violence feels morally smug
thinking there's never a time for violence. I for one think that people that
don't have the strength to define a philosophy and defend it are moral
cowards. I for one don't agree with the philosophy of the middle east, but
at least they have the balls to have one. There is no way that man can exist
without an integrated world view... a philosophy. This moral agnosticism is
worse by far though. At least their view has a relationship to reality...
their wrong. The fog of the unknowable ether inhabited by the anti-idealist
has no relationship to anything. Its free to twist, contort, and dispense
with its views at whim. The misguided Arabs will eventually have the
possibility to correct their thinking by correlating it with reality, there
will be no such chance for the anti-idealist.
Jerry
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Fri Oct 12 2001 - 14:40:44 MDT