At 09:48 12/09/01, you wrote:
>Adrian `Guru Zeb` Harper wrote:
> >
> > A dark day for the planet, one which i feel will drag on for a long time.
> > Make no mistake
> > the situation which i see developing from these events is going to be very
> > nasty on both sides.
> > Already US officials are talking of full blooded retaliation and "Acts of
> > war" ( something i
> > thought was only possible between Nation States ) reports are coming in of
> > explosions in
> > Afghanistan.( which like many other reports around this incident remain to
> > be verified and attributed )
>
>They are attributed. It is 2 or more factions fighting each
>other. Perhaps the ones who approve[d?] of this fighting the
>ones who don't?
Glad you point that out. Exactly the kind of manipulative, expedient
US foreign policy that helps foster the kind of hatred that leads to acts
like Tuesday.
> > Retaliation of course will make much of the population of the US feel good.
> > But will guarantee yet another
> > cycle of internecine conflict. Unfortunately i cannot envisage the current
> > administration, considering
> > the mood of the US population, taking any other course of action.
> >
>
>I hate to say it but I don't see how any other course of action
>would accomplish anything except to say "kick us, we won't kick
>back". The response should be surgical to take out the problem
>without a lot of extra unneeded vengeance and saber-rattling.
>But it should be made very clear that no group can do things
>without swift and costly consequences. We cannot not act
>because we fear more attacks. We must act if we fear more
>attacks and act to lessen their likelihood by taking out key
>players who could launch such an attack.
Yeah i completely accept the need for some form of armed response, perhaps
i have
given ppl the impression than i am a pacifist ..... which i most definitely
am not.
I just hope the response is measured and precise. Lets not forget the
mistakes in
the Serbia then the Chiness Embassy was bomb based on dubious or even
deliberately
misleading intelligence, the Serbia mistake is not the only bombing
intelligence fubar we've
seen resently. I believe a Libyan buisnessman is currently suing the US for
destruction of his
toothpaste factory during an attempted "Bin Laden hit".
The last thing the US ( indeed the world ) needs is to get lead into a
disastrous public
relations mistake, by being lead by the nose into bombing a bunker full of
sick children.
Based on questionable intelligence.
>
> > But where did all this come from, lets be frank. Acts like this do not
> > spring up in isolation.
> > Many years of nee-jerk support of Israel's warts and all policies in the
> > region, combined with
> > pointless willingness to be confrontational with Middle Eastern nations.
> > Has resulted in the USA
> >
>
>The Mid-East situation is much too complex for simplistic
>analysis. And many of those Middle Eastern nations were quite
>confrontational with us, with one another and with our allie
>Israel from the get-go. Some of their governments are run by
>religious fanatics who consider jihad a sacred duty. Some of
>them seek to wipe Israel off the map and consider us the Great
>Satan.
( First i should say and should have in my initial post. All these comments
are
predicated on the assumption of some form of middle eastern Muslim connection
to Tuesdays events. )
Well to be far i did stress in other areas that those are not the ONLY
cause of the
situation.
I have to admit Sam this is exactly the kind of perspective that helped
cause the
problems, on both sides. A rather arrogant sense of cultural superiority,
making open
engagement almost impossible.
We have had a similar situation in the UK Northern Ireland. Once again
historic grievances that
have never been properly addressed. Communities split by both culture and
religion. And the seizing of
a chunk of someone else's Nation in order to secure our own citizens. (
bizarrely N.I Protestants
are actually descended from Scots )
Now am sure many Americans take a much more lenient view of the struggle
for a unified Ireland.
>Not that we haven't done some slimey or at least very
>questionable things in the region over the years. But nothing
>that justifies this kind of attack and nothing that should stop
>us from finding and stopping the attackers.
Thats not what am saying, what i am saying is that ppl bomb and maim because
the feel unjustly treated and ignored. And in many cases they have a point
in regards
of the unjust and ignored.
>
> > These of course are not the only contributory factors, they are however the
> > ones that IMHO most US
> > citizens will choose to ignore. Which is almost certain recipe for another
> > full cycle of violent retribution
> > on both sadly misguided sides.being regarded as International enemy #2 in
> > the eyes of much of the Muslim world.
> >
>
>What full cycle? The terrorist groups (very finite number)
>capable of such attacks will either be stepped on or severely
>curtailed one way or another. From that point on where are such
>full attacks likely to come from?
With dozens of pockets of Muslim poverty and religious fervor dotted around
that region.
Average family sizes of 5-6 children. do you really see the terrorist
organizations
running short of manpower any time soon. Because if it was that easy am
certain that
Israel would have used that option.
By cycle of violence i mean young Muslim boys and men sat watching the
events on Tuesday,
noting the pride and the status the "dead martyrs" garner within their
community. Making a decision
that they too would like to grow up to be such a man.
>
> > Add to this mix Muslim nations with a suspicious attitude to US motives.
> > Religions and cultures that
> > find much of the others distasteful or repugnant. Many pockets of Muslim
> > poverty, ignorance and
> > strict adherence to a perceived fundamentalists credo. And a sense amongst
> > many Muslims that the West
> > and the US in particular would never support one of their causes no matter
> > how just.
> >
>
>Blasting the shit out of US territory is not the way to get
>support for any cause. That message must be loud and clear.
Thats the kind of thing lots of ppl do when the feel they have been
unjustly treated and ignored.
Many Americans should familiarize themselves with the number of times
the US has blocked moves in the UN to sanction Israel for various actions
in the region.
>
> > Please don't for one second imagine that i am in any way justifying actions
> > such as the ones
> > committed today. My own dear sister was probably saved, only by the fact
> > that rather than working
> > in one of Morgan Stanley Dean Witter's WTC offices, she now works in the
> > Braodway offices.
> > However i do feel that ignoring the elements that have help to shape the
> > perspectives of the ( suspected )
> > perpetrators, is not the best way to sech a long lasting solution.
> >
>
>The terrorists will be taken out first. Then we can work on
>settling long range tension with the more reasonable parties.
Like i said previously i only wish it was that easy.
>
> > Humans are rather nasty violent primates, with huge propensity for ignoring
> > the suffering of "others"
> > this i know from experience, but we have to change at some point.
> >
>
>I agree. But giving the message that you will not defend
>yourself or strike back regardless of what comes is not a very
>good idea at an international level. Human groups just don't
>work that way.
I don't beleive i once advocated a "non-armed response" policy, what i would
like to see is some form of engagement with the issues in that region too.
Without that this kind of thing could and probably will happen again.
>- samantha
"FURIOUS GREEN DREAMS, LAY SLEEPING IN STATE,
BUT SOON THE GREAT JELLY SHALL RISE FROM THE
DEPTHS,
AND ALL THOSE WHO MOCKED SHALL KNOW THEIR FATE
IS SEALED"
Guru Zeb,
Hacienda,
Manchester, 1989
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