the Extropian War on Religion (was: the Extropian Religious War)

From: John M Grigg (
Date: Thu Jul 12 2001 - 19:37:42 MDT

Lee Corbin wrote:

> Why not? Yes, if people are going to entertain false beliefs,
> I'd of course prefer that they do it in solitude. But it still
> has to be stated that not only is what they believe false, but
> that there is something very wrong with how they think.

Samantha Atkins replied:
 I can't believe what I am reading. You have enough knowledge
 and information to form an opinion. You do not have enough
 knowledge and information to be dead certain that all those who
 have religious/spiritual beliefs are believing falsehoods and
 "there is something wrong with how they think". I hope I
 misunderstand you here. This looks like one of the most
 dogmatic and intolerant opinions I have ever seen anywhere, even
 from among fundies.

Anyone like my new subject line? lol I have found this thread very thought- provoking though this topic is very recurring around here... Personally, I agree with Samantha that a person in our age does not yet have enough information to be absolutely 100% certain all religious/spiritual beliefs are ultimately false and that there is no God and/or afterlife. But, perhaps even centuries from now the absolute answers will not be in yet.

I will say the evidence for biological evolution is strong and that the empirical evidence for the existance of God is not there in a way I would like it to be. I feel that if there is a God he has seemingly set things up to make it hard for extropian-style atheists to learn of his existance.

Most transhumanists would balk at a Christian saying, "try it(gospel of Jesus Christ), live it and through righteous living, prayer and fasting God will reach out to you and show himself with the small, still voice." I guess this I may get a "pearls before swine" response!

J.R. Molloy has a point I think that if there is no God then religious faith is like the near-sighted wearing eyeglasses. Some people with their positive-minded religious faith can feel such deep happiness and accomplish vastly more in life then they could without it. I am not talking about the Joan of Arcs' or Moses' of the world, but common people who still have inward experiences which validate their belief.

In my own life if I had "held to the golden rod" and stayed strong in the church I would be probably much farther along and also happier in life. I would have a degree from a lds college(I almost attended BYU-Hawaii), a somewhat decent job and a wife and children. The church could have given me the reinforcements necessary to achieve my life goals. The Extropy Institute does not yet offer the vast social/communitarian benefits of being an active Mormon! Maybe the Extropian Universalist Unitarian church of 2040 will(right Brent?)...

I am not one of the brightest and most educated minds on this list by any means. But, I do have a curiosity and for better or worse a pretty strong survival instinct. That is why I am in the process of getting life insurance right now so I can get a cryonics policy from Alcor. But this very desire and action I feel somewhat alienates me from my church involvement. I am what could be considered a borderline "inactive" member.

I realize I was indoctrinated at a young age(Catholic till age nine, then Mormon) and those memes are still lodged deep within me. Despite my interest in cryonics I would one day like to marry in a Mormon temple a woman of my faith. Of course finding a gal who is understanding of me could be very difficult...

I have a feeling that despite some sharp minds here and elsewhere saying, "there is no God, afterlife or judgement" that in the end you may turn out to be painfully wrong. And you may not need to die to figure this out if conservative Biblical prophecy turns out to be true. Wars, famines, and plagues with finally Jesus Christ returning in glory would be hard to ignore.

I want to make it to a time(22nd century at least) when understandings will be SO much better then now in grasping what really got us here and where we are actually going. And with augmented intelligence I should be in a much better position to examine things and come to hopefully the right conclusions.

As I said in another post, the unfairness of our present world appalls me and I hope through either properly used future technology or a literal God(or both) the playing field can be made more level so everyone has a good shot at life. I dearly feel my own thorns of the flesh and want things made right in THIS life.

In a sense with these views I want to hedge my bets and hope God would be understanding. Or at least Thomas the desciple...

best wishes,


Get 250 color business cards for FREE!

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Fri Oct 12 2001 - 14:39:44 MDT