Re: spiritual hyperspace

From: Dana Hedberg (
Date: Tue Jul 18 2000 - 11:05:13 MDT

altamira wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dana Hedberg <>
> I have trouble responding to you, Dana, and I'll do my best to point out
> why.
> You wrote:
> > I would argue that my usage of environment as an 'entity' is strongly
> > suggestive of Gaea Theory. While not a complete one to one mapping, I
> > thought that perhaps I could winnow down our discussion to a belief that
> > could possibly account for an appropriate use of the word spiritual by
> > sort of jumping ahead to see if you subscribed to any of that belief.
> If you wondered whether I like the Gaea Theory, it would have been more
> efficient to ask directly rather than trying to winnow. And how about
> instead of "suggesting" things you just come right out and say them?
Fair enough. You've given me your answer on this, so I'll retire this

> > So, you are certain that some kind of communication took place?
> What are you looking for here? To move the discussion into the realm of
> epistemolgy? To discuss the meaning of certainty? To talk about different
> forms of communication? Are you "suggesting" that humans and non-humans
> never communicate with each other?
What am I looking for? Well, there are many levels that I can answer
this question. I'm guessing that you are looking for something a little
bit more concrete or rather, "efficient" as you say, beyond letting the
conversation pace itself. I agree, while the former may be more
pleasant, it is definitely time consuming and may take significant
effort to make relevant to list topics. In this vein, let me be blunt:

You claim some kind of communication with an animal. Whether you call it
spiritual or something else, you have offered that this connection was
real and that something meaningful was transferred between the two of
you. My questions: What kind of "communication" do you think took place?
Do you think this possible with other animal forms? Do you think the
specific situation gave rise to this communicatory feeling, or do you
think this is something more general?

I believe that there exists some form of empathy within which shared
meaning can be had between two very different animals. This is most
easily demonstrated between domesticated canines and their owners. But,
it is quite possible that this connection could exist with other, wild,
animals. Another question for both of us: Is this connection possible
with other life forms? Plants and trees are a good example here. Many
believe that their plants understand and respond to their
communications. Do you believe this is true? Why, or why not?
Personally, I think that plants are too far removed from similarity with
us that our beliefs about our "connection" with them are erroneous.

> I don't understand if you're actually interested in what I have to say, or
> if you want to have an argument. I already agreed with you that "spiritual"
> was not a good choice of words.
Wow. I am interested in what you have to say. I post rarely in this
forum, so when I do it is because I have interest. I thought that our
discussion had moved beyond the use of the word spiritual, with the
exception of my last attempt at giving a possible reason for the use of
the word spiritual within a Gaea context. (For which I apologize for not
communicating more plainly.) Clearly, though, I misunderstood the nature
of our discussion. But hopefully, this latest post is worth starting a
new discussion on forms of communication with psychologies very
different from ours. Is it even possible/meaningful? What do you think
are the factors involved? How would you go about replicating the
feelings of connection with the coyote? Etc.

If I wanted to have an argument, I would write more like M. Lorrey or L.
Crocker. =) Bygones. Seriously though, when I talk/write with someone, I
don't view it as adversarial. I view it more as an attempt by all
parties to discover something new, together. More of a cooperative
push/pull towards some undiscovered country of the mind (and all it
entails), rather than a here's my opinion, bow down. If you'd rather
have an "argument" I'll oblige, but I'd rather not if it's all the same
to you. =)

> Bonnie


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