Re: Property Rights

Michael S. Lorrey (
Wed, 26 May 1999 18:11:26 -0400

"Joe E. Dees" wrote:

> Date sent: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Brian D Williams <>
> >
> > All the silly laws in the world won't stop gun violence, no law has
> > any effect unless it's enforced, and the record clearly shows gun
> > laws are not enforced.
> >
> Then enforce them. Laws only change behavior when they are
> coupled with real penalties.

That is what I and every other gun owner has been saying for years. The government passes new gun control laws to make it more difficult and costly for law abiding people like me to buy guns, yet they never prosecute the criminals who break the laws. Did you know of the supposed 200,000 'criminals' that the Brady Bill supposedly prevented from buying guns at gunshops, less than ten have ever been prosecuted, even though the Brady Bill makes attempted puchasing by a felon a federal felony? Did you know that in 95% of violent crime prosecutions, the prosecutors either fail to charge or dismiss the weapons charges on a plea?

> > Require trigger locks? Big deal, you may have to sell them, but
> > compliance with using them will be near zero.
> >
> An unsupported assumption. Scientific study and author(s),
> please.

None has been done because lock purchase requirements have not been in existence up to now. You can ask for references that don't exist. Its just common sense. Its also common sense that the law requiring trigger locks is so stupid that it says nothing against the gun buyer turning around and selling the gun lock back to the gun dealer...

> >
> > By the way the NRA has always supported safe storage of guns.
> >
> > Chicago, handguns have been illegal since 1982 (unconstitutional)
> > the murder capitol of the U.S. Prosecution for illegal possession
> > near zero.
> >
> Wrongo; that is Washington, D.C.

Wrongo, it is now Chicago. It used to be Wasington DC, which is now number two. Chicago is number one because of one reason: A group of corrupt cops was selling guns and ammo to gangsters, and tipping them off to undercover cop identities and upcoming busts. Chicago used to have a murder rate of less than 600 per year since 1980. As soon as Mayor Daley took office the rate shot up to over 900 per year and has stayed there.

> > The feds claim thousands of felons were stopped from buying guns
> > under the brady bunch act.....prosecutions, near zero.
> >
> > I live just outside Chicago, (20' to be exact) guns are legal here
> > and there is no problem.
> >
> > Illinois law requires every gun owner to have a FOID (firearm
> > owners I.D.) which requires a background check. No gun may be sold
> > or transfered without a check for a valid FOID and the record of
> > any transactions must be kept for ten years.
> >
> > Chicago is having problems with "strawbuyers", those who purchase
> > multiple guns and resell them to gang members. Under current law
> > these are easy to find and track, guessed it,
> > near zero.
> >
> Then it's time to do a little foot-fire-holding.

Mayor Daley would much rather avoid responsibility by blaming his lack of enforcement on the gun manufacturers. He hopes it will be more lucrative.>

> > >I'm willing to either die for mine, or kill the person desiring to
> > >kill me for holding them.. And you?
> >
> > No problem.
> >
> Anyone should be willling to either die or kill for freedom of thought
> and expression in this country.

What about for other rights? Aren't all rights of equal importance?

> >
> > >But not compared to the massacres which are now routinely
> > >perpetrated in our schools by those to whom we look to carry the
> > >future. How can you defend a system which allows our children to
> > >fatally mass murder each other? I'm a military vet, a hunter, and
> > >own five guns of my own, yet the idea of these kids killing each
> > >other like they are in some crazed puter game is incomprehensible
> > >to me. The insane among us are those who, for whatever sick or
> > >profitteering reason, not only refuse to close the loopholes which
> > >lead to such weapons possession, but who continue to either
> > >stand idly by or applaud as the gun industry, to support its
> > >future position in the marketplace, sells maiming, paralysis, coma
> > >and death to our children via the same shamelessly cynical product
> > >placement ad campaigns we see employed to push tobacco.
> >
> > So how many of these 5 guns have trigger locks?
> >
> None, but no kids. Now that you mention it, however, I should be
> willing to walk my talk, so I'll purchase them.

If you have no kids, then I would suggest that you use a magnetic police type lock on it if you are so concerned, because those locks are notoriously slow to get off, which eliminates the gun's value as a self defense weapon.

> >
> > Military? Name, rank, serial number please.
> >
> AX2 Joe E. Dees, USN (I hunted nuclear submarines from H-2's
> and P-3's and pulled downed pilots out of the drink in the helos
> (SAR - Sea Air Rescue). And you?

A1C USAF. Electro-environmental tech. on F-15's and F-111's. Flightline Anti-sniper security adjutant.

> > By the way by owning 5 guns, you support the gun industry, and I am
> > unaware of the ads you mention.
> >
> I oppose the rampant irresponsibility I see in the cynical promotion
> of firearms to our youth. Remember that the Golden boy's father
> was NRA, the boy had been through their gun safety course, etc.,
> if the NRA was the 4-H, he'd hava had a blue ribbon bull. He still
> shot a whole lot of people from that ridge.

I was raised the same way, and despite being picked on mercilessly as a child, I was more scared of the butt whooping I'd have gotten from my father if I touched his guns than any criminal penalties for using them on my classmates.

> >
> > >Mindfully reacting to the misuse of hardware by calling for laws
> > >restricting access to the hardware by those who are most likely to
> > >misuse it (violent criminals, spouse abusers, the insane,
> > >children, etc.) is both rational and supported by any faculty of
> > >reason deserving of the name.
> >
> > Such laws already exist, try enforcing them.
> >
> We agree here - we should do just that.

Good, call your Democrat congressmen and your local mayors and prosecutors. I'll bet they blow you off or give you the old glad-handing and don't do anything about it. They like to keep crime problems around because they need to complain about it and engender public support for more laws so they can show that they are doing their jobs.

> > >A blatant cop-out. You either know, or should, that the effects
> > >of such measures can only be determined in practice. Pass a law
> > >restricting access to firearms for the above groups of people
> > >coupled with universal background checks to determine if in fact
> > >any particular person is a member of those groups and a law
> > >requiring trigger locks to be sold with every firearm (so that
> > >they will either be harder to misuse if the locks are used or it
> > >will be easier to assess responsibility through neglect if they
> > >are not), and check in a reasonable amount of time to see if
> > >violence has indeed been reduced. BTW, the economic prostitution
> > >of the political right to the NRA and the placement of weapons as
> > >"problem solvers" in movies designed to appeal to teens is not
> > >rhetoric, but fact; if you don't like these facts, let's work
> > >together to change them. teen
> >
> > The existing gun laws, minus those that are unconstitutional,
> > (handgun bans, assault weapons ban) are sufficient if enforced.
> >
> Tell that to the parents of the Littleton dead, that B.G checks at
> gun shows aren't needed. I'd love to see how they answered you.

I don't mind the background check under the Insta-check system, except that the FBI and ATF are violating the law in holding onto the records for up to 18 months. The record of the check on an individual is supposed to be erased immediately after it is done. They are using the system as a gun registration system that is unconstitutional and that has repeatedly failed to pass any congressional committee vote. The reason any reasonable person is opposed to a registration system is the potential for abuse. The Nazi's passed their weapons law with such a system and used it to seize the guns of all of the Jews before they shipped them off to the concentration camps. Keep in mind that the Gun Control Act of 1968 is a word for word translation of the Nazi Weapons Law of 1936, minus the registration system.

Moreover, being required to register a gun is what is called a prior restraint on the 2nd amendment. Any prior restraint on a constitutional right is looked on by the Supreme Court as the most objectionable infringement on a constitutional right and is to be rejected outright by the court. Prior restraint infringements can be facially challenged in the court, meaning you don't have to have 'standing' as being victimized under the bad law, because the law offends your rights from the outset.

> >
> > We will never work together with the antigun folks, their desire is
> > to eliminate all guns.
> >
> Your us-them mentality and subsequent hard-line circle-the-
> wagons extremism is one of the main obstacles to reasonable
> people co-opreating to craft readonable solutions.

When these so-called 'reasonable people' state in public that they think the total elimination of guns is a 'reasonable' goal, then co-operation is not possible, as such people are outright traitors to the Constitution. Handgun Control, Inc. and most of the lawyers involved in these gun manufacturer lawsuits, as well as Vice President Gore and candidate Bill Bradley have all said this at least once or twice, if not on a regular basis.

> >
> > I have to go send the NRA a check....
> >
> > <interuption for phone call to NRA>
> >
> Say Hi to your poster Moses for me.

Have you read his speech to the Harvard Law School? I'm actually quite pissed at the NRA right now, and am considering canceling my membership for their acquiescence to the current round of opression. However I am confident that the ban on private gun sales at gun shows will be thrown out of court as an unconstitutional imposition of congress upon intrastate trade.

What I'd like to see is a law imposing equal penalties on parents for their children's crimes. I think you'll start seeing some parents pulling their heads out then.