On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:49:58
Brent Allsop wrote:
>
>
>Alex,
>
>> Besides, this will also really confuse the liberals-- "What? Those
>> Techno-Libertarians are *helping* people? How low can they sink?"
>
Brent wrote:
Yes, exactly!
you continue:
Which would you rather have: a bit earlier chance to go to and Terra-form mars, up-load to a million times more intelligent/conscious and growing platform, and so on and so forth alone, having many of your loved ones information theoretically dead and gone, or would we be much happier if they too, or at least as many as possible, were first saved before we went off and did some of this fun stuff all alone? People and all loved ones are more important than anything else if you ask me.
(end)
Brent, I totally agree with you on this. Your last line hit me really hard. The ties of friends and family are what life is all about.
Of course, trying to get friends and family signed up for cryonics can be very hard to do! I have read the accounts of those here and on Cryonet which show how challenging it is to confront/work with memes that say death is part of the natural cycle of life, or that God only wants us to live our present lifespans.
I have shared my interest in cryonics with my mother and younger brother Mike(age 25). My mom finds it odd but understands my frustrations in life and sees why it appeals to me though she is a very active Latter-day Saint church member. My brother Mike is an agnostic/atheist but still thinks it is really a crazy idea! Maybe because he likes to hang out with the ardent environmentalist types! Mike is really into computers and so are his main buds though. I am very proud of him for recently getting hired by a firm which installs alarm systems for the commercial sector. Mike may get to travel abroad to Russia in his new job like some of his coworkers have.
My mother the other day(thinking like Robert Bradbury!!) said after seeing the Charlie Rose specials and listening to some biotech folks on Mike Siegal(used to be Art Bell radio show) that cryonics might not be necessary because of the coming medical advances which will develop over the next several decades!! Go Mom!
you continue:
Doing anything to loose as few as possible, to as you say: "help" should be priority #1 for everyone I think. The transition from a society full of death, and all the work required to achieve a society with no more death is going to be a gut wrenching difficult process. Many people are already lost and are not going to make it, at least in the near term (the most difficult part), and none of us will make it alone.
(end)
As important as defeating aging and disease are for indefinite lifespan, think of ALL the other problems which need fixing!! Extreme poverty, untreated disease, malnutrition, babies dying of easily deaths in the third world, horribly inadequate shelter, lack of power and sanitation, lack of schools and teachers, etc., the list goes on and on.
Still, I understand what you mean. It is so frustrating to see all the people dying(and SO many before even their presently allotted lifespan!). With all the money wasted by governments I cringe to think what could be in a better world. If human beings could put their monstrous military spending toward building up the world and not martial power just think what we could do...
I realize military research and war have spurred human technological development to a huge extent. But if only we could only have had such development in times of peace and trust... And service in the military can be hugely beneficial to the young people who go in and (sometimes) are transformed for the better by it.
>Yes, it may make an impact on their lives five or ten >years from now, but you can't eat that, and you can't >use that to pay the rent.
you continue:
I think your completely wrong here. Look at all the major world religions of today that control 90% of the people! How much money do they give so they can build their "large and spacious" buildings of "worship"? Can you eat a huge exotic expensive temple with expensive stained glass windows? Do their supposed God's ever "pay the rent"? No!
(end)
No doubt, there is a lot of squandering of the money given to religious organizations. Still, much of the money is spent within the paradigm of the church as being responsibly spent(building churches, paying clergy salaries, supporting missionaries, aiding the poor, etc.)
Perhaps God should have dollars rain down over the various church HQ's like manna from Heaven so believers aren't asked to donate money anymore? :)
you continue:
All there is is some promise for which there is some miserable hope and absolutely no credible evidence that it is true, that if you starve, and go without paying rent, yet pay all your "tithing", get "baptized", sacrifice your life and die, you'll go to some unimaginable nether world heaven, separated from those that remain here, and supposedly be happy sitting on a cloud playing a harp for eternity.
(end)
I wish there were more credible evidence myself. I find the combination of near-death experiences and the feelings I get when reading the scriptures(especially New Testament) to be a testimony to me. I know what you mean though, I want to be visited by Angels while I am holding a video camera...
Mormons who pay tithing are not going to starve and will at least for a time have their rent paid. The church welfare system is amazing. The emphasis is on getting a person back on their own feet and not making them permanently dependant.
The Mormon concept of Heaven is vaguely extropian in scope. A husband and wife couple who have glorious resurrected bodies bursting with power and knowledge. They will continue to have offspring and create entire worlds for them to live on. On these worlds their children will be tested to see if they will live right. For those who do, celestial exaltation is the reward they receive, as their Heavenly parents before them. Not quite like playing a harp all the time on a cloud... :)
you continue:
What Jane blue-collar and Joe six-pack (and frankly, me too) need is some organization that tells us, or at least helps us know what it is we should be doing in order to be good and have a shot at achieving salvation and exaltation.
(end)
With Extropian definitions to be sure!!
you continue:
A completely volunteer organization that has a simple, easy to understand party line that can be indoctrinated into us when we are toddlers in Sunday School. Not some allegedly absolute infallible never changing dogma that no member has any influence on, but something dynamic that is always improving, improving because of our efforts if we are so inclined to get involved in and contribute to the improvement of the "party line" and make it better for everyone. A party line like: always chose life over death or happiness and joy over misery; never give up; enough correct, rational, scientific... (including spiritual if you must) works can accomplishing anything; you don't die to get to haven and help your loved ones, you live and serve...
(end)
Brent, it sounds to me what you want is a combination of the Unitarian church, the Extropian Institute and the Immortalist Venturist Society.
I am very surprised there is not a transhumanist Unitarian church out there yet with principles similar to what the Extropian Institute has.
I have attended the Unitarian church here in Anchorage. They meet in a fairly big log cabin building in a residential neighborhood. This church is dirt poor compared to the others in the community. The pastor has a doctorate in history and a masters in divinity. He has a very friendly and easygoing way about him. The man is pastor, handyman, janitor and lives on the premises to save money.
What is strange is how you have a demographic of older, middle-aged couples and their very young(elementary age children). Hardly anyone is between those two demographics! They are very educated and still want the "family feel" of a church but without doctrines which they I suppose have trouble with.
I found the "sunday school" to be on par with a college class on humanities! And god help the person who speaks out of turn.... lol!
you continue:
Since Jane and Joe (we) sometimes initially don't have what it takes to be motivated to seek after and find which religion might truly have a much better chance at giving us exaltation than the one we're stuck because it is falsely promising us a similar thing, there must be an unconditional loving "missionary effort" to help us all. The primary goal is to bring "salvation and exaltation" to as many people as possible via any rational and reliable mechanism that might help accomplish these goals.
(end)
Doesn't Alcor sort of try to do this by attempting to promote cryonics? lol Listen Brent, I have heard at the Alcor Life Extension Conference, Dr. Greg Fahy stated much sooner than we think REVERSIBLE cryosuspension may be perfected. With this technology and an advertising budget we could do what you suggest. In fact, big business would basically "take over" and would do it for us I bet!
Have you heard how Saul Kent and Will Falloon are funding the construction of the "timeship" as a place where cryonics research, suspensions and storage can all happen under one roof? The building was designed by perhaps the greatest architect living right now!! This magnificient structure will be a transhumanist/cryonicist temple for a new age.
you continue:
Once someone joins, or perhaps is "baptized" or something symbolic like this, they receive the 'right' to gain cryonic preservation, whether they can afford it or not, whether they are a "sinner" or not. An all inclusive organization that has a goal of being all things to everyone, at least as much as is possible. Of course, everyone is expected to volunteer to give up a bit of their "rent", free time, and such, to help be a missionary and so on and so forth, and contribute to the fund to help make cryonic preservation available to all that want it whether they can afford it or not.
(end)
Brent, as soon as you have a couple hundred million to donate you should have what you need to get your church going! Free cryonics policies to all new members would get EXPENSIVE fast if you really had the infrastructure to keep your word to them.
you continue:
Instead of building large and spacious buildings and meaningless worshiping busy work and begging for some God to do everything for us, the goal is always to do all and anything we can to contribute to any such effort, and to save as many loved ones as is possible in the fastest most rational, reliable, and hopeful way.
(end)
Sometimes people need magnificent buildings to worship in to bring them aesthetic pleasure and to be a symbol of what they believe in. I do not consider cathedral, mosques and temples to be a waste of money in most cases.
I think as the singularity nears and cryonics and emortality technology are perfected, than we will see many people view things as you do and say "we must reach out no matter the cost and save others!" We are not there yet. Brent, you may two or three decades ahead of your time.
you continue:
One of the reasons the "religions" of the world are so successful is because they catch Joe and Jane (us) when we are young and they hit us with a large, nurturing, well organized, very supportive, active group, at least once a week, and hopefully everyday,
(end)
I have had many friends who despite being indoctrinated from birth still left their religious organizations. Usually over matters of perceived sexual freedom or wanting to have more spare time.
you continue:
(at least until they receive some intelligence/consciousness amplification which get's them beyond such needs) over and over with the same old party line of what is really required to gain salvation and exaltation, and to create a true heaven absent of evils like separation, suffering, death....
(end)
Huh? Super indoctrinate them with transhumanist views and goals? I would like to see the truly utopian world you and Eliezer dream of living in. I just think things like greed, ego, envy and mistrust will always put the serpent of conflict and suffering among us.
Having been raised in my faith, I still tend to think "relying on the arm of the flesh" is going to lead to eventual disaster. There are so many warning of this in the Bible. God just has to hang back and watch as we kill and torment each other even as we think a golden age is coming upon us through scientific progress and human enlightenment. We will see... And that is why I see cryonics and life-extension as so important, because I want to live to SEE.
you continue:
All of us don't yet have the money, intelligence and so on that is required to truly be Extropian. Yet we can't do it all without everyone and even true Extropians can't successfully do anything alone.
(end)
There are only a few who are truly Extropian. And I very much agree that we need to work together because we all have something to offer.
you continue:
So we all need everyone and some well organized and active "religion" to help us all know what it is we are striving for and that constantly helps us to have the faith and hope that long before there is anything "all powerful", evils like separation, suffering, death... might be completely overcome for all that want it and are willing to never give up until we get it.
(end)
I can see reasons for transhumanism and a unitarian type church coming together. "Hey, you put your chocolate in my peanut butter!" :) While transhumanism tends to reject the trappings of mainstream religion, the truth is that the sense of love, community, and shared focus a church can engender is truly priceless! Brent could have a great idea here. "Max More, ordained Extropian/Unitarian Minister!" Oh boy!!, as if the poor man does not already have enough to do!
I think a network of transhumanist/Unitarian churches really could vastly help strengthen the movement Max, Natasha, and others have worked so hard to advance. It is a concept worth investigating and advancing. What do the rest of you think? I would like to know.
The resort/cryonics community David Pizer is putting together(and he will do it) will be a shining example of getting something very concrete done. When this project is finished it will be an ideal place for transhumanists and cryonicists of all stripes to gather and rub shoulders to plan how to go about things. And while they do this the public will be there vacationing(sometimes along side us) and this will allow for sharing our message! That David Pizer is pretty sneaky! :)
you continue:
What do you think? To date, most Extropians seem bent on fighting against organized religion? Is this our biggest problem? Might we be more successful if we instead learn from them and all they've succeeded at doing despite themselves? Imagine what Joe and Jane could do given a real shot at real exaltation, something we, ourselves, can chose and eventually determine exactly what we want it to be.
(end)
There is a LOT to be learned from the success organized religion has in gaining and maintaining power. I studied this in a fascinating "sociology of religion" class I took from a professor who at onetime had been a Roman Catholic priest. He was quite happy till he met a certain girl and his heart went a *flutter!* :)
you continue:
Once we've saved everyone possible, then we can go off and do fun things like terra-form Mars, create Dyson spheres, super brains... and anything else we might want to do with our immortal lives including maybe and hopefully eventually achieving enough omnipotence to be able to resurrect and pay back our dead and gone ancestors that would have given anything to be a part of such a heaven, but instead settled with living to create and give us, their children, everything we now have. All this for the selfish hope that we might no longer be alone without them and eternally in their debt for what they all successfully gave to all of us.
(end)
Brent, you have the noblest of sentiments and goals. I think the fortunate few on this planet who are in a position(with their born and yet unborn children) to benefit from the present technological and social advances should try very hard to find ways to save the unfortunate among us. A child who died of dehydration today in some third world nation might have been an "Aristoi" had he been born a century from now. Even if not, every life lost is a horrible tragedy.
I think the historians and layman readers of the future will see the 20th and much of the 21st century as a continuation of the "dark age" of humanity. They will shudder in horror at disease, death and most of all cruelty and death we either committed or turned our gaze away from.
Brent, that is why your post is such a credit to you. Perhaps you have planted a seed of thought which will over time germinate and yield great results.
your friend,
John Grigg
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