Re: crime in big cities and Europe

From: Michael S. Lorrey (
Date: Tue Jun 20 2000 - 18:25:27 MDT

Charlie Stross wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:15:33PM -0400, Michael S. Lorrey wrote:
> > Open borders for TRADE are a bedrock of a free market economy. The existing
> > members of a free market economy should also have the ability to control the
> > quality of life in their communities. If people living elsewhere want a high
> > quality of life like we do, then they should work to recreate our success where
> > they are at.
> Y'know, you sound awfully like Leonid Brezhnev at times, Michael.
> Yes, I agree they need to re-engineer their society. But don't you think
> it's kind of un-libertarian to insist that po' folks stay where they
> are and don't come and annoy us rich peeps by trying to take all our
> minimum-wage jobs, in the name of bettering themselves?

I don't mind SOME immigration. As you apparently ignored, my previous
assertion was that I am for MANAGED immigration. I wouldn't want to
admit every serial rapist, murderer, thief, and mental patient that
other countries wanted to get rid of... as I said, immigration, while at
the individual level may be all about gaining political or economic
freedoms, at the societal level its all about one society externalizing
the costs of its wasteful social policies/memes onto societies that are
more efficient, who put quality over quantity. I have no qualms about
opening up free immigration with countries that share our values. For
the rest, there should be managed immigration to winnow out the chaff
from best workers, best educated, etc. Its OUR country, we have a right
to choose who we want to associate with as fellow citizens. If other
nations want open immigration with us, then they need to adapt their
economies and reproductive policies to be more in line with ours.

And how is that very 'Leonid Breshnev' of me? He tried to keep people
IN. While there is a case to be made for granting asylum to refugees of
political repression, most illegal immigrants to the US live under no
repression, they come here for economic reasons. They come here because
the failed policies of their home countries have caused over population
and inefficient use of resources. Mexico, for example, is the only
country in the world that cannot, as hard as it tries, to actually make
a profit in the oil industry. So long as we make it easy for people to
immigrate here to the US, little or no change will come to Mexico. You
will notice that the most recent changes there have happened since we
started getting tough on immigration....

> > Vermont has the lowest homicide rates in the country, and the most liberal gun
> > laws
> When losing an argument, change the subject -- fast. It's a great way of
> not having to face up to uncomfortable facts, isn't it?

No, merely a parallel situation. When you can't respond to such points,
its easy to claim that the subject is being changed, especially when you
selectively edit the post like that.

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