Re : soccer violence as a model for post-scarcity gesellschaft

From: Joao Pedro de Magalhaes (
Date: Tue Jun 20 2000 - 09:51:25 MDT


Rob Sweeney wrote:
>* Joao Magalhaes <> [000619 10:45]:
>> I didn't know we lived in a oppressive society? A question: since Europeans
>> live in an oppressive society and legal system, how come we never riot as
>> it happens in LA? No racism?
>Never riot? Perhaps there are Europeans, and Europeans. When I lived in
>Zurich, I saw a very nice, full-out riot in the center of the city - complete
>with broken windows up and down the Bahnhofstrasse, riot police, looting, and
>anything else you might want. I also saw skinhead attacks more than once,
>and quite blatant police brutality numerous times. I actually became more
>concerned for my safety walking around there sometimes than I am home in
>NYC - because in Zurich, I found I wasn't able to accurately sense that a
>situation was becoming dangerous - the violent things I saw happen seemed
>to come out of nowhere.

So Zurich stopped being a member of my "future places to visit" list.

Michael S. Lorrey wrote:
>I don't know what kind of exaggeration you get on your media, but we see all
>kinds of rioting in the news going on in europe: the french on trade and labor
>reforms, the germans against immigrants, then you've got your organized violence
>in the Balkan states.

Let me remind you of my words: ". . . how come we never riot as it happens
in LA?" Skinheads attacks are not riots as it happens in LA. The Yugoslavia
war is not a riot, it's a war (what's next, WW2?) Soccer fans rioting on a
square -- destroying cars, robbing stores, etc. -- is not a riot as it
happens in LA. I didn't said there were no riots in Europe; I said European
riots are nothing close to US ones.

>Not so. Only a fraction of violent crime here is gun related, and I did not say
>that every American has a gun. I did say that there were about 240 million guns
>in the US. Most gun owners own more than one gun. Moreover, not all gun owners
>carry a gun, and those with carry permits do not carry at all times.
>Having a gun when contfronted with an armed criminal (knife, club, etc)
>increases your survivability by a factor of 2.5. on average.

I don't feel like discussing guns issues; nothing I can say will change your
mind and it's unlikely you will change mine; so it's a useless argument. I
think, in general, the US' position towards guns leads to a decrease in
security and quality of life; you disagree and think it's the guns that keep
you safe. The end.

John M Grigg writes:
> As I've said before, almost everyone I have known personally that
> has visited europe has been robbed at least once while they were
> there, they've had their hotel rooms robbed, their cars broken into or
> stolen, and bags snatched out of their hands.

Although I don't have stats I'm pretty sure that, for example, Spain or
Italy have higher non-violent crime rates than the US.

Best regards.

Joao Pedro de Magalhaes
The University of Namur (FUNDP)
Unit of Cellular Biochemistry & Biology
Rue de Bruxelles, 61
B-5000 Namur BELGIUM

Fax: + 32 81 724135
Phone: + 32 81 724133
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