Re: Dreams have to come from SOMEWHERE

From: Steve (
Date: Wed May 17 2000 - 10:47:21 MDT

Date: 17 May 2000 01:07:54 +0200
From: Anders Sandberg <>
Subject: Re: Dreams have to come from SOMEWHERE

>Are dreams the royal road to the subconscious? I doubt it. They tell a
>lot about us, but many of the references are so personal they cannot
>be interpreted by an outsider - exactly what does a cartesian product
>in a unmade bed,or the third part of the trinity playing in a jungle
>gym mean? Somehow I doubt an analyst can figure that out. Some parts
>are probably easier to interpret, and maybe some people have less
>obscure dreams, but I doubt dreams are a better insight into our minds
>than for example talking with us.

Anders, are you advocating a similar position to Owen Flanagan, that dreams
are essentially 'spandrel's?

I agree with Globus that we are "dreaming" even when awake, with the
addition of external stimulus and absence of sleep motor paralysis. I
constantly deal with "artificial sleep" ... my preferred term for hypnosis.
Hypnosis is the "royal road to the subconscious" not dreams ... because my
subjects can report what is happening, and integrate experiences with their
critical faculties.

My take on dreams (the MVT perspective) is that the melatonin produced
during REM by the lateral eyes replaces the melatonin that previously was
produced by the pineal eye (RE. Michael Menaker ... lateral eyes, the second
and third pineal glands?).

Aristotle pointed out that dreams have no external sensory input, so are as
'pure' a form of consciousness as you can have (On Dreaming). MVT explains
how sensory mentation is possible without environmentally originating
sense-data, and also give the early evolutionary account of the phenomena
relating to night-time pineal vision of our cold-blooded forebears.

There is much more to be said on this.
Editor zine
Updated daily or thereabouts

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Jul 27 2000 - 14:11:19 MDT