My understanding is that all epiphenomena are
real.
The phenomenon of hypostatization -- the notion
that because we use a certain word, there must
be a corresponding existing entity -- may be
relevant here.
Frederick Mann
At 07:24 PM 3/9/98 -0500, Reilly Jones <Reilly@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>Christopher Fedeli wrote 3/7/98: <I've noticed a strong tendency for all
>memetically minded thinkers to keep clinging to some notion of the
>metaphysical "I". How can one accept that all of our traits came to be the
>way that they are by the evolution of genes and memes, and yet still think
>that somewhere 'in there' is a "me" who is capable of exercising some
>control over the process?
>
>To take a famous example, Richard Dawkins argues that humans can "rebel
>against the tyranny of the selfish replicators." He gives the example that
>
>every time we use contraception, we are rebelling against the tyranny of
>genes who want us to procreate. But who is really rebelling in this
>example? To me, this seems like an case of the meme for contraception
>winning a big victory in the battle for survival against certain genes.
>But to hypothesize a magical "self" that lurks around in our brains,
>deciding which memes and which genes will exercise influence over our
>behaviors at which time is a joke that no reflective thinker could suffer.
>
>
>Will anyone argue differently?>
>
>And Frederick Mann replied 3/7/98: <I agree that there is no magical "self"
>or "I" in reality. However, in the same way that I can load a program
>called
>"I" into a computer, some complex brain circuitry could evolve and call
>itself "I." And at some point this circuitry could achieve sufficient
>complexity to spontaneously produce the epiphenomenon of free will
>or volition.>
>
>I know this seems to be difficult for many individuals to grasp, but there
>really is a subjective "I". Subjectivity is an unpleasant fact of nature
>for scientists because there is no way to study it, measure it, experiment
>on it, or theorize about it. So all too many of them take the
>intellectually lazy or dippy way out of their conundrum by pretending it
>away. It never works, of course. Subjectivity is just one of those things
>in reality that is a given, there is an "I" that is just as real as
>external objects that we can measure. Free will or volition is not an
>epiphenomenon, it is real. The brain does not work the same way a computer
>does in at least one very important respect. Information does not exist in
>the absence of an "I", a knower who is distinct from the known. "I" can
>exchange information with "my" environment, with external objects, with
>other subjective selves, even with "my" own body, in that it is an external
>object to "me." However, "I" cannot exchange information with myself, with
>"I". "I" cannot be both subject and object, both knower and known. When
>Socrates said "know thyself," he could only be talking about knowing your
>body as it is an object to you and about your relations with other selves
>and the external environment. He could not be talking about knowing your
>own self, your "I". You don't know yourself, you don't exchange
>information with yourself, you simply decide. Decisions are the atmosphere
>of subjectivity. The protection of volitional freedom is of primary
>importance because of this.
>
>Perhaps a consideration that "selfish genes" and "memes" are a load of
>hooey is in order if you are forced to pretend that subjectivity isn't
>real, or that there is no real "I". Perhaps some deeper reflection is in
>order.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Reilly Jones | Philosophy of Technology:
>Reilly@compuserve.com | The rational, moral and political relations
> | between 'How we create' and 'Why we create'
>
>
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