> ----------
> > From: Eugene Leitl <eugene@liposome.genebee.msu.su>
> > On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, den Otter wrote:
> >
> > > > [ virtual Extropia? ]
> > > All of the above is very useful, but not a substitute for an autonomous
> > > extropian nation. You might be relatively "free" while surfing the net,
> >
> > It is more-or-less, and also a lot easier to implement. It can also be a
> > testbed for nonvirtual Extropia (which, for the record, I must consider a
> > yet another (and powerfully distracting at that) dream).
> Distracting from what, exactly? Everyday life?
>
> > Me, I'd just be
> > deliriously happy to survive the Singularity (i.e. having a continous
> > trajectory in persona space thru the Singularity).
> Unless transhumanists get somehow organized the chances that any of
> us will make it past singularity are close to zero; the powers that be will
> crush us all like worms. Only (some of) the rich and powerful are going to
> make it.
I propose that two foci for extropian communities, which already seem to be in the
embryonic states: the California Enclave, focused on technology, and the Washington DC
Focus, emphasizing the cultural and political, be recognised as necessary for further
development of extropian goals.
> > Btw, is the current ad
> > hoc Californian Extropians enclave not sufficient/is a natural segregation
> > focus? (Anybody in residence over there care to relate your experiences?)
> I'm sure the Exclave is a lot of fun, but hardly comparable to a sovereign
> country...
>
> > > but you still live in the real world where you're pretty much at the
> > > mercy of the often whimsical government and "society". Furthermore,
> >
> > I think the idealist escapist in you makes you gloss over the rough edges
> > far too easily.
> No-one said it's *easy*, but it doesn't take a superhuman effort either. Others
> have done it, so why can't we?
>
> > Unless a full-blown neoludd witchhunt is on (then
> > presenting an easy target is definitely not a good idea),
> The neoluddites are an insignificant bunch of morons, and not
> the real problem. Organized crime and governments on the other
> hand...
Don't underestimate the threat. Its a statistical fact that the highest viewership of
television evangelists is Washingotn DC. Who has the pulse of the powerful???
>
>
> > the interference
> > of state can only be considered a minor (albeit definitely
> > resource-draining) nuisance. Yeah, it's not pretty, but it won't hinder
> > your plans enough to prevent the altogether. If yes, your plans may not
> > have been that robust after all.
> A lot of small nuisances still can make life miserable. Instead of enduring
> decades of paying taxes, filling out forms for every stupid thing, waiting periods,
> legal injustice, petty crime and all the other crap that's related to our societies,
> you can focus on one major effort, and reap the fruits for many years to come.
> A private nation is an investment that can ultimately save you a lot of money
> and frustration. It's the embodyment of personal freedom and responsibility.
> Of course things can go wrong, but then again you can also lose your job
> and be unable to get another one, for example. Life is a risk, no matter what
> you do.
>
> > > virtual networking is nice to chat and make initial contacts, but if you
> > > *really* want to get something done you'll still need get togeter
> >
> > Does distributed project coordination, a focused newsfeed (time is money!)
> > and digicash transfer strike a vein? The importance of _direct_ matter
> > manipulation may be further diminished if we consider minimal telepresence
> > capability expected to become available in the next two decades, or so. In
> > any case you could purchase the services desired, albeit efficiency might
> > suffer. Of course this is a just another sterile Geekonia dream. So sue
> > me.
> Aren't all kinds of virtual activities best conducted from a safe haven with your
> own sandy beach and waving palms? ;) For some very lucrative business like
> new designer drugs (the "grey area" kind that's not yet universally recognized
> as illegal) and virtual porn (apart from kids just about anything goes) and
> world lotteries and other gambling activities (virtual or otherwise) a distant
> retreat is highly recommended. Money & fun in the sun, what else could
> you want?
>
> > > IRL. Besides, a new nation is *adventure*, an energizing inspiration to
> > > all, a great service (refuge from persecution) and a potential source
> >
> > Also, it is a great resource sink, and just an invitation to having you
> > all conveniently extinguished (yes, chronic paranoia _can_ become a
> > lifestyle).
> I think you're a lot safer on your private island than in a big city, for example,
> and *should* someone try to bother you (which is unlikely if you keep a
> reasonably low profile) you have at least the means to defend yourself
> (your budget is the only limit).
>
> > Btw, anybody having a wager when we will see the first
> > (sub)tactical nuke use, and by whom? Similiar bets as to bioweapons'?.
> I think Israel's gonna see some action within the next five years or so.
> The former USSR is also a likely candidate, of course, and it wouldn't
> surprise me if some US city got a taste of home-brewn chem/bio before
> the end of the century. All very predictable...
>
> > > of considerable income (something this movement is in dire need of).
> >
> > Judging from the cryonics movement (at least two instances?) and
> > Scientology dogma can be a great motivation for individual finance
> > resource accretion.
> Yes, we need more dogma! Dogma inspires people, vague ideas don't...
> (only half-joking).
>
> > Being a personal success beakon will make extropy look
> > like more than a yet another weird Californian cult. Imho. (And having ExI
> > not permanently teetering at the edge of bankruptcy (feel free to correct
> > me) should also help to increase the memefection rate somewhat).
> What's the alternative plan, then?
>
> > > Founding a new nation gives a sense of direction to transhumanism,
> > > and it's an useful drill for the next logical step: migration to space.
> >
> > By the time we are supposed to get hit by that fabled Singularity I'd
> > expect only a few 10 k persons in (mostly, cislunar) space, if at all. A
> > malignant Singularity will thus have an easy time to having your systems
> > perverted, when looking for minimax paths into space. Autistic fugitives
> > at the periphery ought to have a fairly good chance, though. Call me
> > Ishmael
> How do autistic fugitives get access to the first body enhancers/upload devices?
> They don't (unless they somehow build such a machine by themselves, which
> is unlikely at best). Athough money will lose it's value in the singularity, it will
> be crucial to have plenty of it to get a good starting point. Whoever gets hyper-
> enhanced first, wins. The rest might very well die, because the greatest
> threat to a superpower is another superpower, and since all humans are potential
> superminds they will need to be neutralized (and killing is probably the most
> efficient way). Not pretty, but nontheless a reasonably likely scenario for the
> "singularity" if rich criminals and governments get this technology first.
> Isolated cybergeeks don't stand a chance against these forces, but an
> organization might pull it of (construct an "uploader" before anyone
> else does).
>
> > > This should be possible if all pioneer groups interested in this combine
> > > their forces. Differences can always be settled once we're offplanet.
> >
> > Oh yes, and my augmented hamster is building a wormhole drive.
> I wish him the best of luck!
-- TANSTAAFL!!! Michael Lorrey ------------------------------------------------------------ mailto:retroman@together.net Inventor of the Lorrey Drive MikeySoft: Graphic Design/Animation/Publishing/Engineering ------------------------------------------------------------ How many fnords did you see before breakfast today?