From: Brian D Williams (email@example.com)
Date: Thu Jan 03 2002 - 08:48:42 MST
>From: Neil Blanch <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>I am suggesting is that the US has a chance to offer real
>leadership in key areas, a chance to lead by example rather than
>ride roughshod over the rest of the world. I suggest that a policy
>that would promote friendship with the US rather than hatred is in
>your own best interests.
It seems half the time the world is complaining that we're not
doing something and the other half that we are doing something.
Make up your minds.
>>"Nonsense. The Taliban did not even exist when we funded rebel
>>groups in Afghanistan to oppose the Soviet invasion."
>I believe ample evidence of US involvement in this issue was given
>earlier in v6#363-4 including the direct funding of Bin Laaden by
>the US government.
Bin Laden yes when he was fighting the Soviets, never the Taliban
and never BinLaden since he became a terrorist.
>>> ME: "There are people in this world who hate America & America
>>> has given them plenty of good reasons to have that hate."
>YOU "A matter of opinion, an opinion we don't share."
>Been to Bhopal? Seen what the US government has done in South
>America? Remember Vietnam? Laos? Cambodia? Indonesia? The Balkans?
>Shit - remember the nuclear tests in Utah on your own citizens?
Bhopal was caused by a local screwing things up at a privately
operated plant, nothing to do with the U.S.
What about South America, be specific.
Vietnam? yes we opposed the Soviets and communism there, how many
countries have cone communist since?
Laos? Cambodia? Countries that became involved in the war since the
NVA and Viet-cong used them for bases.
Indonesia? you'll have to explain this one.
The Balkans? Yeah, we prevented attempted genocide.
>YOU: "You're claiming the Soviets were the legitimately elected
>government of Afghanistan?"
>Absolutely not! I do think it is irresponsible to just abandon a
>country like Afghanistan once your immediate objectives have been
>obtained. Leaving behind a power vacuum in Afghanistan has lead to
>years of war, opportunism by fundamentalist elements from other
>nations (eg Pakistan) and all the misery & suffering has surprise,
>surprise turned around & bitten you on the arse.
Our objective was to help the Afghan people oppose the Soviet
This is a typical case where if we had done anything else the world
would be bitching at us for meddling.
>>YOU: "America is the freeist and most just country on the
>Which is why you have such a large prison population and why your
>justice system (the envy of lawyers everywhere! ka-ching!) largely
>seems to depend on what legal counsel you can afford or who you
>are connected with (remember OJ, Iran/Contra?) - and yes, I do
>know that it is only slightly better here in Oz.
We still have a problem with letting people be responsible for
their own behavior, and we have a problem with a paternalistic
Still the best.
>Oh & the side bets seem like a good investment to me, given "fuck
>you buddy" attitudes like yours & the ease with which terrorist
>operations can be carried out by folks with a high school level
>knowledge of chemistry & a mobile phone.
Straw man argument, ad hominem.
And yes we suffered for being an open society, but watch what
happens to our enemies.
>This all getting a little silly. Much as I enjoy the cut & thrust
>of a good argument (and I admit have been given much to think on),
>I doubt that many of us are here for sessions of moral finger
>pointing. Perhaps it would be best for the list itself to let
>these issues lie & return to debates that are a bit more on-topic.
Since this concerns the future of the human race it is most
certainly on target.
Extropy Institute, www.extropy.org
National Rifle Association, www.nra.org, 1.800.672.3888
SBC/Ameritech Data Center Chicago, IL, Local 134 I.B.E.W
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