Re: GUNS: Re: Self Defense

From: Michael S. Lorrey (
Date: Fri Jan 19 2001 - 16:41:48 MST

denis bider wrote:
> Michael S. Lorrey wrote:
> > Another scenario: Drug dealer gets arrested, and
> > cuts a deal by providing the 'address' to his supplier,
> > which is actually the home of a law abiding individual.
> > Police raid the house with a swat team, shoot first and
> > ask questions later, the occupant being unable to defend
> > themselves.
> I have to say I don't really understand this paranoia of yours.

Its not paranoia when it actually happens to many people, and not just
in countries with funny names (they tend to be more like your country).
Whether its the BATF raiding a remote cabin or church, or DEA agents and
local police raiding an alleged 'kingpin', the Secret Service raiding a
software company with a blank search warrant, there have been at the
very least several dozen such cases in the last decade, resulting in
hundreds of deaths, with not one policeman being held responsible for
the innocent people they killed, and rarely is a government held even
financially responsible.

> In normal countries like where I live ;-), nobody has a gun. Only licensed
> hunters, police officers and army officers are allowed to have weapons.

Yes, I understand this was also the case in 1938 in some countries. Lets
see, you are in Slovenia, according to, which is a former
Yugoslav republic. Hmmmm, no, I'm sure every person killed in your
country definitely needed to be killed.

> If
> anyone else wants to have a weapon, it's a tough procedure to get it - among
> other things, you have to get a license and register with the government,
> and you can be quite sure you won't get a license if you have any kind of
> criminal record. Without a license, no purchase possible.
> Sure, there are gangs and lunatics, and they have illegal guns. But they
> don't shoot people all over the place - in fact, gangs very rarely shoot
> anyone outside of their circles at all [for kidnapping victims, they seem to
> prefer drowning], while lunatics typically shoot people they are angry with,
> they get caught easily, and then they get something like a 10 year prison
> sentence.

Or they get into government and start genocides and civil wars or
continent wide wars. No european nation has any right to claim they are
in any way more peaceful or safer. The odds of a european dying from gun
fire is about a hundred times higher than for any American.

> Sure, the police can "raid your house with a swat team, shoot first and ask
> questions later". But it doesn't happen; we simply don't have a national
> culture of shooting each other. The police very rarely use their weapons,
> even in extreme cases, and each bullet is accounted for. And that's even
> with our police being somewhat corrupt - there are reports that some of them
> take bribes to allow some people to do things they shouldn't, but I haven't
> heard of a police officer to shoot a person that is anything less than an
> arrogant, widely known and notorious criminal.

This is funny, coming from former territory of Yugoslavia.

> So, I don't think America's aversion against banning guns has any rational
> structure at all. There is no need to buy them back. There is no need to be
> easy on guns. You just ban them, instate a heavy fine on owning illegal
> weapons, and that's it. Give everyone a year or two to get used to the fact,
> and the problem is solved.

Yes, the Riechsgeletsblatt did that quite well in the 30's. Its also
been tried in Britain and Australia in the 90's to disastrous effect,
crime has been rising by double digits in every year since their bans
took effect. Property crime in Britain is five times higher than it is
in the US, violent crime is two times higher in Britain than in the US.

> In particular, your argument about someone protecting themselves with a gun
> while the police "raid his house with a swat team" is, well, far off. I
> think your swat teams are expert enough that no one will survive shooting
> back against them. If they want to shoot you, they can do it anyway -
> pretending a gun provides any real protection against the police is an
> illusion. The only thing you might be able to do with it is kill a few good
> police officers before they put a bullet in your head for doing so.

By definition, if a police officer is conducting an illegal raid on the
home of an innocent law abiding citizen, they are NOT a 'good police
officer', and under the law a private citizen has the right to defend
themselves against criminals in their homes, which is what a cop
committing an illegal act is...

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