Re: Christian evangelicals colliding with the singularity...

From: James Swayze (swayzej@earthlink.net)
Date: Sun Mar 05 2000 - 21:16:51 MST


inniss@sprynet.com wrote:
>
> I'm afraid I can't completely share your optimism, I think we'd better
> get really used to hearing the accusation "playing God."

I was on a local television program debating the issues of cloning. Oddly enough
most of us there were in the pro camp. I remember one individual that was a PETA
person. The commentator, a local news celeb, put her on the spot by asking her
would she condemn me (quadriplegic) to continued disability when possibly a new
replacement body could be cloned for me. She actually put the abstention of
possible suffering of animals above helping a fellow human being!

When asked MY opinion of cloning of course I was in favor. I took the
opportunity to point out that I was not in favor of the monstrous thought of
destroying a sentient being to replace my body but that knee jerk superstition
influenced laws would impede or prevent legitimate research in tissue
engineering and the like. At what point do you call it a human being if you are
engineering everything from organs to limbs perhaps even a torso? If you can
produce a clone with only enough brain to control bodily functions and not be
conscious, what is the difference between this and a collection of parts?

I headed off the issue of "playing god". I said, (paraphrasing myself as it's
been a while) "Some people would accuse me of 'playing god' but I disagree. To
play god, I would have to call energy into existence from nothing and form that
into matter. I'd have to wait a few billion years for that to become life. I'd
have to wait a few more billion years for that life to become human beings.
Frankly, I don't have time to 'Play God', I'd rather just use what's already
here." Of course I did not go into the fact I am an atheist or address the fact
most xians would disagree with the evolutionary bent of my argument or that one
couldn't possibly produce humans again if starting from scratch but I did get a
chuckle from the scientists on both sides of the issue. There was no time to go
into any details given only enough time for a sound bite. I tried to make it
poignant and humorous.

Before the cameras even rolled I said to the whole group sitting there looking
nervous as hell, "I don't know about you all but I think the real over abiding
question we are here to discuss is: If you have sex with you clone--Is it incest
or masturbation?" They all busted up laughing and this broke the ice well and
served to highlight the fact that most were pro-cloning and scientists and if
con mainly so on the side of caution. So it was interesting the following week
to listen to the tv-land audiences phoned in objections. Most were xians issuing
the usual canned platitudes. One I recall decried the fact (they're opinion
only) that there seemed to be a total lack of morality on either side of the
aisle.

So you see some xians do see our efforts as immoral. Imagine that. Seeking to
cure death and suffering is "immoral"! In my own grandfathers words, "God will
not be usurped, AIDS is the plague of Revelation and there will never be a
cure!". He would also say it's against god to try to become immortal. I know the
bible text he would quote. It has to do with the serpent/Satan telling Eve "she
would surely not die" and that with the knowledge of the "tree of knowledge"
she/we "would be as gods".

This is the meme which they will use against us. This fundamental meme has been
throughout the history of the xian religion the sticking point holding back
science and the accumulation of knowledge. They are terrified we will fullfil
the prophetic words of old scratch himslef and become gods ourselves thus
destroying any need of their beloved god. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE the depth of
ignorance fanaticism can sink to. They will jealously drag you into oblivion
with them if they even briefly think there is a chance you will shed light of
truth on their darkness of false faith.

In deference to the few rational individuals among them (some among us here) I
will say that I refer here to the most acrid fundamentalists. The problem is
that even good people get caught up in bad movements. They begin to slowly
identify and gradually rationalize from the weakest position their own good
reason for full involvement. Throughout history otherwise good people have
gotten caught up with the mass hysteria surrounding them and aided in the
commitment of terrible acts or unwise legislation.

I think we need to head this off at the pass, so to speak. We should invite
xians into the fold a little maybe. I'll use cryonics for an example. I see no
reason why this must be against any fundamental xian belief. As one friend put
it to me "I want to see the future while still in the flesh". I have said to
xian friends and family that if it works the person obviously by their
definitions was not yet truly dead. I'm filtering this through a xian paradigm I
am familiar with. That of my former own beliefs and of my families current. They
don't believe the soul goes to heaven immediately upon death but rather is
asleep until resurrection. So, here, there is room to say that should the
cryonics patient awaken this has merely been a suspension and no more usurping
god then a resuscitation from a heart attack.

However, take those that do think the soul goes to heaven. A case could be made
that if the cryonics patient is revived, then their soul somehow found the body
again. In ether case I don't see how it is necessary to take the position that
god has been usurped. I would argue, even though I am atheist, that if god
exists we mere humans couldn't possibly usurp him/her/it. That if cryonics works
for the individual xian then god has allowed it in order to allow the person to
have more time on this world to do their so called good works.

What say you all? Could we pander to potential foes to prevent them becoming
foes?

James

-- 
"Quod de futuris non est determinata omnino veritas"
			    NOSTRADAMUS 15TH Century



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