There is probably no way for me to prove conclusively that Jesus existed
in historical fact, and that was not what I was attempting to do. I
offered the New Testament as evidence, since it purports to be an account
of the life and teachings of Jesus, much as a document might be
introduced into evidence in a court case. I suppose any historical
document is open to question.
Ron Kean
On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:04:14 -0500 "Harvey Newstrom"
<newstrom@newstaffinc.com> writes:
> <ronkean@juno.com> wrote on Tuesday, January 04, 2000 2:44 am,
>
> > On Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:31:35 -0500 "Harvey Newstrom"
> > <newstrom@newstaffinc.com> writes:
> > > <ronkean@juno.com> wrote on Monday, January 03, 2000 2:55 am,
> > > Sorry, but most of the books of the New Testament were letters
> > > written by Paul, who never met Christ.
> >
> > Yes, Paul converted to Christianity a couple of years after Christ
> was
> > killed, after he had been dispatched to Damascus to put down a
> Christian
> > community which he subsequently joined, but it might be fair to
> say that
> > he was a contemporary of Jesus, was closely associated with the
> some of
> > the earliest Christians, and was able to recount the life and
> teachings
> > of Jesus.
>
> You claimed that most of the books of the New Testament were written
> by
> Apostles who personally knew Christ. Paul is not an eyewitness to
> Christ.
> He cannot recount the life and teaching of Jesus. He can only
> repeat what
> he has been told, as do modern believers today. Paul cannot give
> historical
> evidence for the existence of Jesus.
>
> > > > The Jews consider Jesus to have been a Rabbi (religious
> teacher),
> > >
> > > I would like to see some evidence of this.
> >
> > I can't provide a specific quotation from a Jewish authority, but
> it is
> > not surprising to me that he could be called a Rabbi, since he was
> a Jew
> > who instructed Jews on religious matters, and had many followers,
> which
> > is pretty much the definition of a Rabbi. A controversial Rabbi,
> to be
> > sure.
>
> You are using the Christian bible as evidence again. There are no
> Jewish
> sources that list Jesus Christ as a recognized Rabbi. You are not
> citing
> any Jewish historical evidence for Jesus. You are repeating what
> the Bible
> says again. You are citing the bible as evidence for itself. This
> is not
> independent historical evidence.
>
> > > > and Islam lists Jesus as a prophet, one of many prophets who
> came
> > > before> Mohammed,> > the Seal of the Prophets (the last
> prophet).
> > >
> > > Mohammed was born around 570AD, and died around 632AD. The
> writings
> > > attributed to him occurred after that date, over 600 years after
> > > Christ.
>
> > Even though Mohammed lived centuries after Jesus, it would not
> preclude
> > Jesus being recognized by Muslims as a prophet. The holy building
> called
> > the Kabaa, which looks like a black cube, located in the center of
> the
> > religious compound at Mecca, was built by Abraham (according to
> legend),
> > so that suggests that Islam reveres Abraham, who long pre-dates
> Jesus,
> > and who is part of the Jewish tradition. The Muslims call Jews
> and
> > Christians 'People of the Book', meaning that Jews and Christians
> adhere
> > to the holy scriptures which pre-date the Koran, and Muslims allow
> that
> > Jews and Christians worship the one true God. That suggests that
> Muslims
> > respect the scriptures of the Christians and the Jews, just as
> Christians
> > respect at least some of the scriptures of the Jews. I don't have
> a copy
> > of the Koran, much less one with an index, so I can't easily look
> up
> > whether any mention Jesus actually appears in the Koran.
>
> You make my point for me. The Muslims respect the scriptures of the
> Christians. They quote the New Testament passages as saying Jesus
> existed.
> Again, you cite quotations of the New Testament as evidence for
> Jesus. The
> Muslims do not have independent historical evidence for Jesus
> Christ.
>
> All three of your examples boil down to quoting the New Testament
> references
> to Jesus. You have not presented any historical evidence outside of
> the
> Christian scripture itself. We all are aware of the Christian
> scripture.
> The question is whether there is any historical evidence outside of
> the
> Christian claim that Jesus actually existed.
>
> --
> Harvey Newstrom <http://harveynewstrom.com>
> Certified Consultant, Legal Hacker, Engineer, Research Scientist,
> Author.
>
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